Taking advantage of me?

I live in Vancouver and feel totally trapped by the daycare here...

I hate to lean on the statement "I am a single mother," but I am, and it's getting very hard to to well at my job because of my daycare situation.

My main concern is that my in-family daycare provider takes holidays on my expense whenever she chooses. I read the fine print of my contract and it says something like "I can take holidays occasionally when I need them..."

Well, it's only been eight months and so far she's taken:

• six sick days
• three weeks of holidays
• american stats
• canadian stats

All on my paycheque (ex, no discounts). I don't mind one or two weeks, plus Canadian stats, but above this seems unreasonable. I know she'll probably inform me she's taking more time off at Christmas.

The thing is, she doesn't ask either...she just informs me she'll be taking time off and refuses to give me a discount. Money is very tight for me and my baby...we do not get a subsidy. She happened to take off the busiest week of the year for me. I have no family here and can not find a back up sitter during her vacations.

I myself have had zero vacation this year. Very depressing...

Any advice for me? I've tried to negotiate, but she will not budge.
Obviously I'm looking elsewhere. But what are the standards I should expect?

So sorry this is happening to you. In my opinion this certainly sounds excessive! Especially the expectation to be paid for & take days off on US and Canadian stat holidays? That's not right at all. We live in Canada and this should apply to Canadian stats only. Going forward in a new contract I would definitely look for specific vacation time periods (eg. 2 weeks paid vacation, anything over that unpaid). As well as perhaps being very clear about Stats. I live in a border town (I'm assuming you must as well?) and sometimes that gets confusing with parents working of both sides of the border.

Thanks for the reply...

Reading the contract again, my provider asks for "all major holidays" off, but many of the holidays she lists are not B.C. statutory holidays - for example, taking a day in lieu of father's day, christmas eve and boxing day. And some American ones. This all amounts to over 4 weeks paid leave.

Wow! I don't charge my families for any of my time off. Its in my contract that they are supposed to pay me for stats but they don't bother and I found it more of a hassle to fight for it so I just let it go. I take ONE week off for the whole year and its unpaid. Any days that I need to close for family or other events I don't get paid for either. I think she is a bit excessive in what she is not only taking, but in making you pay for. I don't live in Vancouver, but that amount of time off with pay wouldn't fly here in Ontario. Sorry you are going through all this. I would be looking elsewhere if it was me.

Wow, I'm sorry but I think you need to find a new daycare. I have a contract that is agreed upon and signed and followed to the letter or the clients are breaching the contract and can be terminated and lose their space. I'm in Ontario also and not with an agency. I'm not sure of your laws. I believe that I must be very fair with my clients and keep a good reputation in order to have good references in the future. I respect and value my clients and you are not in that position are you?

My fees are due for 49 weeks per year in full, no matter if there are (Canadian only) stat days, sick days or missed days for any reason by the client I take 3 weeks vacation per year without charge, but otherwise full fees are due. Simple. In my contract are 3 paid personal days in case I am sick or have to take a day off but I would give my clients as much notice as possible.

I'm worried about your child. Use your best instincts to make sure your child is safe and well cared for but we in the childcare industry have to demand respect but we also must earn respect by running a professional business.

Can I clarify what "in family daycare provider" means in BC ... are we talking a nanny who comes into your home or a group home child care where you send your child to someone else's home?

I ask cause in Ontario it would make a difference because nannies are protected under Employment Standards Act and group home Childcare providers are considered self employed we make our own contracts and parents as clients either accept conditions or not.

Either way it sounds like this contract is too ambiguous - all major holidays is not clear they should be defined cause seriously Father's Day is a day we celebrate but it's not a holiday either in Canada or the States to my knowledge ;)

I have paid vacation negotiated into my service contracts but t is defined as two weeks as well as how much notice is to be given.

Either way until you can replace her not much you can do since she won't regnotiate and you obviously need care :(

Hope you find a better match soon!

She is entitled to vacation and stats, however, this does sound excessive! US and CDN holidays is ridiculous not to mention paid holidays for father's day, etc. I would definitely be searching for a better fit for you and your little one.

I htink the problem is that she was vague in her contract. She can take any amount of paid holidays she wants as long as it is in the contract that you agreed upon and signed. I am surprised to hear that she considers things like Father's Day a stat holiday, but if she had clearly listed that as a day she is closed with pay, there is nothing wrong with it. I take Boxing Day and Christmas Eve off with pay in addition to the official stats, but they are all clearly listed in my contract and I also take two weeks paid and one week unpaid vacation, plus 7 personal days for things like illness...the key here is that it is very clearly stated in my contract as well as in my interviews and parents understand and agree to it when they sign on with me. I think your only option is to find another daycare provider and make sure she has a clear contract which lists which days she will close for and which days are to be paid by the parents.

I think by "in-family" you mean that she's a member of your family? Maybe because of that she's giving you cheaper rates than what you'd normally find elsewhere? If that is the case, then you need to do the math to find out if the cheaper rate that you're getting from her would still be cheap if you went with someone else who wasn't taking advantage of you and taking all that time off. And yes, she most definitely is taking advantage of you. Canadian AND US stats? Honestly. Who does that???

Check around and find out what other people charge for daycare. Once you figure out the math, you may find that her taking all this time off and you paying for it is not actually cheaper than going with someone else who's more expensive and who's not a member of your family.

The standards you should expect are 1 - 2 weeks vacation. Some providers would have you pay this. Others don't. When I close for vacation, my clients don't pay. Most providers will have you pay for Canadian stats only. Definitely not US stats as well. Some providers will have you pay for sick days. Others won't. I'm one of those who say if I close for any reason (other than stats) then my clients don't pay. So that includes sick days, vacation, etc.

Anyway, I hope you find someone else really soon. All the best!

Thank you all for your advice! I am going to ask her to negotiate the contract to include 2 weeks paid holidays and Canadian stats only...if she can do this for me, we will stay...if not, sadly we will have to leave.

She's not a member of my family, but an home-based daycare. My little daughter really likes her, so it would be sad to leave, but honestly, this is unfair in my eyes. We live in a different economy now. Flexibility is the key to any good business relationship.

Sounds like a plan Cassandram ... how long has she been 'open' do you know? Just wonder how long she has be using this 'contract' and if other clients just willing pay for all this extra?

Sadly since she is self employed and 'makes' the contract as a result and you signed it I would be prepared for her to NOT want to negotiate it now. However if she looses you as a client because of it hopefully she will use that as a reflection tool that her contract is too ambiguous and technically could get her into trouble if a client decided to SUE her for it because technically ambiguity in a contract and how it could be 'interpreted' is typically awarded to the person who DID NOT WRITE IT aka the client in this case because it is our job to make sure that expectations are CLEAR!

I also agree with the Jazmic about doing the 'math' around what she charges you compared to what others charge and what is included in that to make sure you are not comparing apples to oranges when deciding what is 'fair' in regards to payment ~ because while it does sound 'excessive' depending on the circumstances it might actually be 'fair' if that makes sense.

For example I offer my clients TWO payment options depending on how they like to budget...

Payment option A is requires no payment when I am closed for vacation or personal sick days just for the 10 public holidays Canada observes .... New Years Day, Family Day, Good Friday, Victoria Day, Canada Day, Civic Holiday Labor Day, Thanksgiving Day, Christmas and Boxing day ... I am also closed Easter Monday as well but take than 'unpaid'.

My Option B payment is a weekly fee payment 8% lower than option A and this plan includes payment for the above stat closures plus 10 vacation day closures that are accompanied by 60 days written notice of closure and 10 personal/emergency closures which come with as much notice as possible under the circumstances.

At the end of the year they are paying the 'same' fee as each other and they are paying the 'average' rate for my neighborhood over all.

Good luck!

bottom line...YES, she IS taking advantage of you....but, if her contracts state she can take these days off (no notice?, at her leizure?) she's somewhat in the right. (only in her eyes) You are doing the right thing looking for someone else, when you are searching through other providers, make sure you have a list of ALL the expectations you have...don't let this one "jade" you, they are not all bad. However, this time...do your homework and make sure you pick a provider that is right for you, she's out there. :)
I too, do not take pay for "my time off" I also DO NOT take rediculous days off such as "fathers day" that IS totally taking advantage. She wants a paycheck for nothing IMO. I say, "FIND SOMEONE ELSE AND GIVE HER NO PAYCHECK AT ALL!!" Good Luck!

She takes a day in lieu if father's day? That is ridiculous, as is taking both American and Canadian stats! I have all CANADIAN stat and civic holidays off and paid. I have March break, one week at Christmas and 2 weeks in the summer as my vacation-but this is UNPAID. I also have 5 personal days which I give parents ample notice for and again - these are UNPAID. I think you are completely being taken advantage of...I am sorry to hear this-it's ridiculous :(

I've never heard anybody taking Mother's Day or Father's Day as a holiday. I have a dcMom who works for CRA and she doesn't get Family Day in Feb. which I take as a day off but she does get Remembrance Day which I don't use as a stat. But Federal or Provincial, they are both Canadian stats at least!

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Originally Posted by cassandram

We live in a different economy now. Flexibility is the key to any good business relationship.

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I don't agree. I don't think we need to be "flexible". We run a business just like any other business, large or small. I think 'flexibility' is a word used by parents with regard to home daycare when the parent expects SPECIAL. And SPECIAL always comes at the provider's expense.

Now, don't get me wrong - I DO think your provider's time off is excessive and over the top. I mean, really, American holidays? :blink: I also think it would be hard to keep clientelle who are paying for provider vacation time if it is three or four weeks a year. And, in that regard, I think your provider is likely just inexperienced with regard to this business.

However, YOU signed a contract with the provider and, as you stated, all this was included in that contract. It was your job to do the homework and understand what is considered the market expectations with regard to daycare in your area as well as viewing and completely understanding the contract before you signed it. You agreed to the terms of the contract, and, IMO, the provider is really doing nothing "wrong" but simply enforcing her contract.

Is it a bad contract? Likely. But that is not the point here.

You could try to "negotiate" the contract, as you have stated, but honestly most daycare provider contracts are not negotiable. Mine isn't. I would rather lose a client than negotiate my fees or paid holidays etc. So just be ready for her to be willing to cut you loose if you take that approach.

Well said Judy ~ I personally would never have signed a contract that was so ambiguous around holidays!

HOWEVER just wanted to add that the poorly worded contract aside and strictly discussing the amount of time taken off .... the original poster COULD be talking about me .... my Option B contracts include 'paid vacation and sick days' but it is not unlimited it is clearly defined as 10 days per calendar year of vacation with 60 days written notice and 10 days a calendar year of personal/emergency/sick days with as much not as possible .... so in reality that is FOUR WEEKS of time right there and in addition I also get 10 stat holiday closures paid ~ so that is another TWO WEEKS .... so I get a total of SIX WEEKS a year in paid time off that I can and DO take and depending when you start that could have all almost ALL been taken in an 8 month time frame!

So yes it sounds excessive when you put it in writing like that but it sure does not FEEL excessive to me and in reality MOST employees get two weeks vacation, 10 sick days and all stats off ~ if clients are not comfortable with that than they can opt for a Option A contract and pay the HIGHER fee payment each week and I will put the money aside myself for my closures ... but either way I get paid the same and THAT is what we do not know here is what fees were being charged here in comparison to the norm in the community ~ maybe she charges 'less' each week in exchange for having 'paid' time off ;)

Perhaps this provider has been in the field for 10, 15 or 20 years and rather than 'raising her direct fees' so that she is not higher than the 'average' in her community instead to get recognition for her years of experience and track record she has been adding in additional 'paid time off' as her financial perk for the skills and experience she brings to the table to her clients .... which I can appreciate having been in the field for 25 years not just in home childcare but in the entire industry ~ it can get frustrating that you can never seem to 'get ahead' of the newbie around the corner who opens up or the new ECE graduate out of school who gets paid exactly the same as you do because well our field, unlike others, society does not seem to recognize performance or experience as a value they are willing to PAY extra for .... at least not 'directly' so for those of us who are 'seasoned' we try to add it in 'indirectly' through additional time off or other perks ... I have peers who get paid days off like their own birthday or their children's birthday or they take their Anniversary off or Christmas Eve and so forth .... like Mother's Day these are not 'Canadian Stats' but it is at least CLEARLY LISTED in the contract so that clients signing on know what they are agreeing to ;)

Bottom line is new or a experiences ~ a provider is entitled to negotiate whatever she wants into her contract and it is up to the client to agree to that or not ~ however if one does not have a CLEAR contract than one is going to run into issues like this where it is up for interpretation and therefore anger and frustration on the clients part leading to high turn over :(

Reggio ihave almost the same thing ...... Three weeks paid holidays and 5 paid personal days and all the stats ..... But it is in my contract/handbook and it clear !

I have been doing home daycare for several years (10 or so), and I have always had "15 paid vacation days" in my contracts as well as all CDN stat and civic holidays paid. I do not get paid for any sick or personal days though. I also make sure to give parents ample notice of any vacation time usually 2 to 3 months written notice. I have never had anybody have any issues with this. I think if the contract is spelled out clearly, this is the key to averting any issues.

While I do sympathize with your situation, you did sign her contract that was too vague and perhaps misleading. Although I don't think she would be legally able to charge you for US holidays or Mothers and Fathers day. Definitely excessive. Hope you find alternate care soon.

On the provider's end there may be a very good reason for some of what she has put in her contract and yes if it is written there then she can enforce it although it does sound like there are some ambiguous days she just takes if she wants to. For things like Mother's and Father's days they are technically the Sunday so if her or hubby's parents live out of town then they may very well need to take a personal day on the Monday to travel to visit them all but an explanation at the time of signing since it is an unusal thing would have been nice. Can not understand the US holidays unless they live close enough to the border to take advantage of holiday shopping specials and actually travel to the US for their holiday days - or again one of them is American and not Canadian and they celebrate everything. But again an explanation would have been nice.

While she is in her right to put whatever she wants in her contract. You are also in your right to choose to terminate the contract - with proper notice and to find someone with a vacation package that better fits with your schedule of days off.

I would also never negotiate my contract. It is the parent's responsibility to ask questions BEFORE it is signed. They don't have to sign it if there are issues they don't agree with. I close CDN stats and give at least 30 days notice for holidays any other day I wish to not open. Barring unforeseen emergencies course. I also never ASK a parent if it's okay that I close.

That being said however, I do agree that OP's provider is taking advantage and her contract leaves too much for interpretation.

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Originally Posted by michellesmunchkins

Wow! I don't charge my families for any of my time off. Its in my contract that they are supposed to pay me for stats but they don't bother and I found it more of a hassle to fight for it so I just let it go. I take ONE week off for the whole year and its unpaid. Any days that I need to close for family or other events I don't get paid for either. I think she is a bit excessive in what she is not only taking, but in making you pay for. I don't live in Vancouver, but that amount of time off with pay wouldn't fly here in Ontario. Sorry you are going through all this. I would be looking elsewhere if it was me.

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The bolded part, WHAT?? Why have it in your contract at all then? Not trying to jump on you here but this statement blew me away. If providers continue to not follow their own contracts, parents will continue to disregard them and believe them to be negotiable. If you do not abide by your own contract, then how can you expect parents to take you seriously? As for the OP, you signed the contract and are only now reading the fine print? Excessive or not, you signed the contract so it's not the provider in the wrong here.

All of the daycare providers on this site agree that this parent has been wronged. This woman's contract is ridiculous. Darasmommy needs to stop stirring the pot.

Yup darrasmommy you hit the nail on the head ..... I have the greatest job ..... The kids run around aimlessly all day while I sit on the couch counting my money and thinking up new ways to put the screws to the parents. Muahhahahaha !
<eyeroll>.
Someone please tell darrasmommy to take her meds

Ah just gettin your goat darrasmommy !!!!

I rarely have a problem cause I have a contract and I stick to it and it is clearly set out in plain English for all to read. I like to come on here to give advise to those who do have issues, maybe my advise helps maybe it doesn't. I certainly don't bad mouth my daycare families because you never know who's on here.
But basically it boils down to I love my job, I love my commute, and my boss rocks !!!! Cause I certainly wouldn't change other kids shitty diapers for a living if I didn't!

I don't know of any disgruntled, bored, angry babysitters on this forum. There are intelligent, dedicated professional daycare providers and I have been blessed with their advice and knowledge. I chose this career when I retired from being a full-time university professor because I believe that I am making a difference in the lives of families. It is not easy, nor am I well paid. I make more money in one evening of teaching than I make in a week of daycare. And your attitude, darasmommy is disgusting. You clearly have not experienced the joy of having your child cared for by a professional, but coming on here to insult my colleagues is not the answer. You could have asked for help in finding a professional daycare provider, and been given the questions you should ask to make sure you aren't just hiring a "babysitter." Instead, you insult us. This is a place for caregivers to seek advice when dealing with problems, because when you are helping parents raise little ones, there are lots of challenges. The experienced daycare providers on this forum share their knowledge openly, and that is such a blessing. I'm sorry you are bitter, but you are taking it out on the wrong people. It's like getting a first-year dental student to pull your tooth, and then blasting all professional dentists for not knowing what they are doing....

I honestly rarely have that problem...Because I've learned to concentrate on the good things I have to offer...Though sometimes children's behavior gets in the way of my vision LOL

I don't know about the rest of you, but I'm not disgruntled or bored or angry and I'm also NOT a babysitter, how about you? I love being self-employed and I really care for my daycare kids and their parents are all pretty wonderful too. You know, this is really opening our own eyes to how wonderful we are and it's about time we all pat each other on the back for being dedicated to our profession and proud of what we do for a living.

Yes! Big pats to you and all of the other wonderful ladies on this site who give their all every day and make childrens' lives brighter :) I think the fact that we all spend time on this site learning from each other and trying to solve problems, shows that we are truly dedicated to what we do. Otherwise, why on Earth would I spend most of my break discussing daycare related issues? I could be watching soap operas instead, but I choose to be here and learning and helping others and becoming thebest caregiver I can possibly be :)

I'm outside Vancouver but I have never heard of any other daycare provider with a contract like yours.

I have all stat Holidays (Canadian) and a week between Christmas and New Years off (3 days). I have now added another week in September for all the new contracts.

I'm paid monthly, the same amount each month. Many months have extra days in them and since I have never closed because I am sick I feel the amount of days I get off is fair.

I have also had a hard time finding someone to run the daycare when I go on holidays.

it definately sounds like you are being taken advantage of. I dont understand why she would take american and canadian stat days anyway. Does the contract say that you pay for her sick days, because those arent "holidays".

I dont think that the fact that you are a single mother has any bering here at all. I'm sure you would feel the same way if you had a second income in your household.

It seems to me that perhaps her contract is too vague because you seem surprised by what you have to pay for. If in fact the contract states that you pay for all of the days off as you mentioned then you have no one else to blame. As a self employed person she doesnt have to "ask" you for the time off. Its her decision when, but it is her responsibility to give proper notice.

If she wont budge on policies and its not working for you, its definately time to move on but be sure to read the contract thoroughly before signing. Perhaps a daycare centre would be more suited to you since you have no one to cover days off. that way you can save vacation days for vacation.. Best ofluck

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Originally Posted by michellesmunchkins

Wow! I don't charge my families for any of my time off. Its in my contract that they are supposed to pay me for stats but they don't bother and I found it more of a hassle to fight for it so I just let it go. I take ONE week off for the whole year and its unpaid. Any days that I need to close for family or other events I don't get paid for either. I think she is a bit excessive in what she is not only taking, but in making you pay for. I don't live in Vancouver, but that amount of time off with pay wouldn't fly here in Ontario. Sorry you are going through all this. I would be looking elsewhere if it was me.

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your right Michelle, wouldnt fly in ontario. However YOU should be paid for stats for sure.

I cant believe the provider mentioned takes a day off for father day LOL. I suppose she gets her birthday off too.

Hi.

I am a daycare provider in Ontario and you should find some one else to look after your child. I take 20 days per year which includes five for sick days. I give my parents a minimum of three months notice of any time I am taking off. She is taking advantage of you and if the shoe was on the other foot she would not like it.

I have no idea if you are still reading the responses on this post, but just incase, CHANGE DAYCARES!!! I am a new owner of a multi-aged centre, I am paid for stats, and I take 1 week off in the summer and one week at Christmas off - paid vacation. Most businesses get paid vacation, and I am no different. However, having said that, there are a few situations where I will give discounts, for example, I have one family with 2 little boys, and they are now Mon and Friday... well that's when most stats fall... so I have given them a discount on their fees. It's a small price to pay for a fantabulous family like them. As a caregiver it is my job first to care for the children in my care, and second to do what I can to make "daycare life" as easy as possible for the parents. I will always do my best to help a family out - unless they start trying to take advantage of me in which case, I reassess the situation. Anyways, if you still check this thread let us know if you have changed daycares or not!

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Originally Posted by darasmommy

OP I hope you have been successful in finding a new daycare. That is completely outrageous, but after reading quite a bit on these forums from "daycare providers" it does not surprise me in the least. I would opt for a daycare centre that is licensed and registered.

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Why are you painting ALL daycare providers with the same brush?

That really isn't fair or helpful. :confused:

Kelly...don't worry about darasmommy, she is just a troll who pops up every once and awhile! Don't take offence!

There's dara again lol...does the troll have pink purple or blue hair? lol

A gentle reminder Don't feed the trolls!
The ignore feature is your friend

Find another daycare.

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Originally Posted by KellyP

Why are you painting ALL daycare providers with the same brush?

That really isn't fair or helpful. :confused:

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I wouldn't be surprised if darasmommy promoting licensed child cares is one herself with a chip on her shoulder for unlicensed ones getting all the work :laugh:

I used licensed ones too from the year my son was born up to recently and in between had better unlicensed ones, yes better ones are unlicensed.. I have had nothing but bad experiences with all the licensed ones..

No prizes for guessing which ones I use currently and will always stick with. Licensed ones break all the rules, all of them, never had one that didn't, they just suit themselves.
My son had some bad experiences I can tell you, I could write a book! I felt bad for him each time.

The unlicensed ones on the whole, most of them have been exceptional in comparison, listen and treat my son as an individual, not force him to fit in with their own children e.g. at nap times where my son was made to get up after 10 mins as one of the licensed ones daughters was waking up then. And another licensed one didn't offer or give him cereal as the first day at hers he didn't want any so she felt he wouldn't the next two days either??? Another licensed one when my son was a baby took a toy off him and put it back on the shelf at her day care when we went to see her, crazy.. had pictures of children on her walls but we never saw any other children there and my son chose to close his eyes and go back to sleep during the daytime rather then have to look at her (that is what she fed back to me!).
Last year another one would tell my son off every single time I took him there as soon as he'd walk through the door, in the end I was assertive and told her maybe she should put her dog in another room, can't you see my son is nervous and why should he have to get used to it???

It does seem excessive. I get paid for Canadian Stat days when I am closed, and also 10 personal days a year. So that's for sick and vacation. I give a month's notice for vacation dates and tend to hang on to a couple of personal days in case I get sick at the end of the year. I do have in my contracts that I can take more than 10 days with appropriate notice but I've never done it and the extra time would be unpaid.