Naptime tips desperately needed!

I am a new daycare provider and I am really struggling with naptime. Right now I have a 14 mo dcg and my own 13 month old son. Neither one of them will nap unless I lay down with them! My son is a great sleeper at night - he goes in his crib awake, barely makes a peep and sleeps for 10-12 hours. But when I put him in his crib during the days he loses his mind. On the advice of others I tried letting him cry it out and after about four weeks of heartwrenching cries I put an end to it. He literally sounds like he is having a panic attack and can't catch his breath. I know there are people on this forum who will say that naptime isn't negotiable And not to let the kid 'win', but I am simply not comfortable with him being afraid for any length of time when I know that he will sleep for 2-3 hours if I am beside him. Also I should add that naptime isn't negotiable here either but a 13 and 14 month old can't comprehend those words so I need some techniques and advice do that I can show them:-)oh one more thing, if my little guy does happen to cry himself to sleep in his crib he wakes up after 20minutes and I am not about to go through the entire 1ish hour CIO i
Nightmare again.
Next I have 14mo dcg who screams for a solid 30-40 minutes when I put her in her playpen. She sleeps for about 20-30 minutes and wakes up screaming again. If my little guy happens to have fallen asleep these screams wake him up.
In the next few months I have four new dck starting (a 2 yo next week!) and I am literally having panic attacks about how this is all going to look when I have a full house. I have a queen sized mattress on the floor in one of my rooms so thought I would start to solve the problem by laying down with the children and getting them into a solid nap routine, (yesterday and today they have both napped for 3 hours - they're still napping). Once I have them wanting to nap, I will start reducing the time I lay with them and eventually transition them onto cots.
I feel like a bit of a failure As a provider but I really can't handle the 1-2 hours of crying with the CIO method and I feel like this is a more gentle approach. Dcg parents are very supportive And are on board for whatever works best for me.
I would love any advice, information, book recommendations, words of encouragement ;-) that anyone could offer. Thanks :-)

Sorry for the typos, I'm on my phone!

What if you just sit on the mat with them and not lay with them. You move to each and genty push them back down when they try to stand up. Mostly if we can get the kids to stay laying down they fall asleep. Too many getting up times and they get themselves so overtired they just can't settle.

I would be afraid of laying down and falling asleep myself if I was having an exhausting day and you don't have the security of having them in playpens where they would be safe.

Some parents might not like the idea of them all sleeping together since we are supposed to keep bedding separate etc.

Oh shoot I just typed this big reply and it disappeared! Thank you, playfelt for your thoughts! I feel like I am at my wit's end especially because I have a new friend joining us on Monday! Me laying with them has to be a very short term solution because I have to be able to get up, walk around, have a cup of tea, etc. another thought that just popped into my head is that I could get the 14 mo and 2 yo to lay on their mats and I could wear my 13 mo in my carrier.
My dcg will stay on her mat, and the 2 yo is apparently a great sleeper at daycare and home (the mom is a friend of mine so I trust her), but my own son will not do well on a mat by himself just yet and like I said, he completely loses it during naptime in a playpen or in his crib (I have tried both). In his stroller or in my arms he is a great sleeper. I'm just so frustrated because I have 2 bad nappers, both still quite young and only 2 hands!! Haha!

I use playpens. When I have a new child I put them in a separate room and I sit beside them and make sure they learn that they have to lay down and stay laying down and there is no other option. I might miss out on most of my breaktime for a week or several weeks depending on the stubbornness of the child but it's worth the effort.

I've had all 5 children falling asleep at the same time for years now. Right now my group all fall asleep within a couple minutes of each other when I lay them in their beds and tuck them in. It's wonderful.

Thanks for your thoughts, momof4. What would you do with 2 who aren't napping? I couldn't be beside both of them... Tried for about two weeks goin back and forth every 15 minutes but the crying just escalated and after that time I noticed no difference...

It seems as though you have not prepared your son for daycare ..... I tell my families their child must be able to go to sleep without being rocked. This is something my families begin working on several weeks before starting care(if its going to be an issue) I also tell them not to take the child in the stroller to nap as this is akin to rocking. I had a child starting last year that would only sleep in the swing and she put a stop to that and by the time she started with me she was going to bed on her own no problem. I had another one start last fall that would only go to sleep after being nursed obviously she had to put a stop to that. It seems as though you have created a situation where he has not yet learned to self soothe. I would put a fan or some sort of white noise in his room as well as all the other kids rooms and let him CIO .... When he wakes up leave him there till nap time is over. It's tough love and yes I had to do it with two of my kids but it is a skill he needs to learn. Because he is older its going to be harder but it can be done and you have to do it on weekends too in order to keep the consistency ....You cant be laying down with kids to go to sleep especially when you have four more starting in the near future. Sorry if I sound harsh.

You are not a failure gravytrain. You do have to show these children that you are in charge. If they are in playpens I guess I would try again letting them cry it out until they exhaust themselves. I wouldn't go in and out of the rooms and back and forth. You are exhausting yourself.

Can you put them together in the same room in playpens and sit beside both of them? Speak sternly to them, not sweetly, so they know you mean what you say. It's time for some tough love if you've tried everything else.

Definitely find some books or articles that teach about good sleeping habits and talk to the parents. Babies at this age need 12-14 hours of sleep within a 24 hour period. So they should be sleeping 10-12 hours at night and they will have a good 2 hour nap. If they are sleep deprived at night and they fight sleep with their parents the same way they do it with you, then you have a huge problem. Get the parents on board to help you out or you will have grounds for termination. I don't continue unless the parents are working with me to solve problems.

Thanks for your advice, Crayola. CIO is one method of sleep training and one that parents and caregivers must be comfortable with. I appreciate what you're saying but I really don't think one method necessarily works for all kids.
I actually consulted an infant sleep specialist in October as my son started waking through the night several times after months of sleeping, well.. like a baby ;-). She suggested that we ensure that he gets his two naps per day any way possible - whether we hold him, lay with him, etc. as over tiredness is often a contributor to frequent night waking. We also use white noise and have dark curtains do he has no extra stimulation. I followed her advice and within three weeks my son has been sleeping 10-12 hours per night without incident. We recently went on a family trip and he continued his good sleeping habits there as well. I hadn't planned on opening my daycare until after Christmas, so thought I would have time to work on the naps, however I met a really nice family needing daycare and I took their child on mid November. So you can see, the nap issue isn't for lack of wanting to prepare him for daycare, it's just that all of a sudden everything happened very quickly and now here I am, with two little ones who don't know how to nap.

Momof4 - thanks! I like the idea of having them in playpens beside each other.

From day one my dck's go in a playpen and stay there until I come back a few hours later. It doesn't matter if they cry the whole time they eventually get with the program and sleep.

gravy-train, all my kids sleep in playpens in the same room. It is completely dark and quiet. It reassures them that they have room mates. If I have a cryer, I will put the child in a seperate room for the comfort of the other kids, but I let the child CIO. I don't go in the room. It has worked for every child who had to learn to self soothe and it takes about 5 - 8 days to get them in the nap routine. Good luck, this too shall pass

Not sure if any one has mentioned this yet! I also find a white noise machine can work wonders. You can actually buy white noise on a CD or download from iTunes and and put it on a CD yourself so you can play it on a CD player on repeat for the whole nap time. Maybe try your son again on the weekend with the white noise at nap time. I find if you start out rubbing their backs to help them get to sleep you can then move on to rocking and jiggling the Playpen to help sooth them eventually they get used to sleeping in the playpen and will be able to fall asleep on their own. I have also always had all five children down for their naps and asleep at the same time in different rooms and some sharing in the upstairs of my house for years! All five are under 2 years old!

Thanks so much for all of your advice! It seems like everyone here has had great success with letting them CIO. I don't want to think about terminating because I can see that winsome work dcg is going to be a pleasure, not to mention that I need the income that she brings. I think I might call the parents tonight and have a good, stern chat with them and maybe put a timeline in place? What do you think would be a good amount of time to get this all on track?

Yeah, white noise for the kids (I use humidifiers) and how about ear plugs for you! :laugh: Only half joking. You said that you can't explain to a child that age that they must sleep on their own. Well, you do explain it by not giving into their demands of attention....going to them when they cry. I understand that you're not comfortable with CIO, but it's short-term pain for long-term gain. The BEST gift anyone can give children is teaching them to put themselves to sleep...day or night! If they get your attention, whatever it may be through crying, there is no incentive to stop. Crying= getting what they want...so let's keep crying.

DEFINITELY playpens and can't you seperate them? so that if one miraculously sleeps they don't disturb the other?

Good luck! Again, short-term pain for long-term gain!

I think it's important to note that you said you tried CIO for 4 weeks and your son would just cry 2-3hrs still, right? So it would seem to me that straight up CIO isn't working and you need another form of sleep training. I'd recommend reading the Sleep Easy solution if you haven't already tried that. I find it's a more moderate path of CIO especially if you have tried for 4 weeks with no progress. jmo.

I agree with jazmic, CIO never worked for my oldest he was 3 before he slept by himself. Nothing seemed to work with him. However my other 2 and all my dck's CIO and have done pretty much since they started or I the case of my own did from about 6 months. Aim for a dark room, full tummy, play pen to ensure they are contained, however some children hate being in play pens IMO , and a few safe toys to play with if really needed. I also find if you don't constantly listen, your heart doesn't break quite as quickly. And do not go back in to check (unless you are worried) as this enforces the idea of if I cry they will come! Most of all hugs and good luck!!! Let us know if you find the answer!!!

The key is also consistency .....if the same thing is not being done on weekends then it takes a lot longer cause the child is confused ..... The child is thinking Sometimes she comes sometimes she doesn't so ill just keep crying cause maybe she will ..... Is the child on one nap or two .... Maybe if still on a morning nap it needs to be earlier and shorter like maybe at 8am for only 30mins so that there is enough time in between naps .... Plus is the child crawling or walking around or just sitting there or carried ..... They need to move around and be outside too .... Fresh air makes for a sleepy baby ..... I have two infants in my program one walks one doesn't but we go outside everyday even if its for only 20 mins and they both are in bed from 12:15 till 3:15 at least. I'm not an APer and so I'm sure others that are will disagree with me but I don't think you can wear a baby all day and respond to their every need and look after several daycare children too because they all will want to be picked up and you only hands two hands.

if they need sepeate rooms and you have the room so be it! put the playpens in two different rooms and the only advice I can give is "tough love", they need to learn that when it's nap time it's nap time. lay them down changed and fed, and leave them alone, they will dry 40 minutes the first day or two, 30 the next, 20 the next and before you know it, they will be trained to sleep when they lay down. AS LONG AS you don't give in, stick to it, lay them down, and let them cry it out. Some children are stubborn and take longer to get used to it, but eventually all kids figure out, "when it's nap time, its nap time". Good Luck!

The starting nap earlier is one thing to consider. Sometimes we leave kids till they are showing signs of tiredness but then are too overtired to deal with going to sleep. By making it a consistent time regardless they come to see it as a normal part of the day. Put into the playpen awake they have time to orient themselves to where they are and no amount of tears brings you back and they learn to rest/sleep/play till you come. No need for toys as there is plenty to see and blankets and toes to play with.

You might consider a video monitoring system to watch what is happening instead of going in and it might also give you clues as to the process the child is going through. One of the tricks to living through the tears is to set yourself a list of things you must do before you can have the kids up and then stick to it. It helps to tune out the tears. Keep reminding yourself that you are really doing the children a favour by insisting on naptime.

If being in a separate room for napping isn't working maybe you need to start by playpen training them. That means having the playpens in teh playroom and for periods of time you put them in them and then go about doing something. They need to get the idea that you go and come back and they can't get to you.

If you want to go with the sitting with them and cosleeping what about getting a play yard - those ones where the sections go together to make a hexagon. Then pad the bottom with a thick pad/quilt. Put them in there and sit between them while they lay down and fall asleep. Then when asleep leave the area. The play yard isnt' as confining as a playpen. It also works great for a child that is almost ready to give up morning nap as in they go in there for "naptime" and are free to play or sleep.

I don't understand how you think he is having a panic attack or afraid? He is obviously not afraid at night to just do down and go to sleep. He is manipulating you, plain and simple. He knows you are up and that there is stuff going on and he just doesn't want to miss it.

Thank you to everyone who has taken time to respond to this post and offer kind words, advice, and tips.
Judy - when I tried CIO a couple of months ago my son's cry was much different than anything I have ever heard before, even different from when I did night sleep training. He sounded like he couldn't catch his breath. He is a very easy-going baby who rarely cries and adapts very easily to all situations. What I am discovering is that perhaps he was still having separation anxiety as he was 11 months old at the time.
I did hours of research last night and have decided to try CIO with these two again and to adjust our routine a bit so that we are home for both morning and afternoon naps so they are not sleeping in the stroller.
This morning I put them down in separate rooms for a morning nap (my son in his crib and dcg in her playpen in a room by herself with blacked out window). both had white noise playing in their rooms.
DCG cried for 30 minutes, slept for 20 and cried for another 10 until I `woke`her up with our wake-up song. My son cried for 5 minutes and slept for the entire 55 until I `woke`him up with our wake-up song.
I`ll post again with an update of how this afternoon goes.

Thank you playfelt! On your advice I just dusted and mopped my kitchen floor during the morning naptime. It helped me tune out the crying a bit. I just posted an update saying that I decided to try CIO again. I am hoping now that my son is a bit older he will be able to grasp the lesson a bit more readily.
Normally we head outside in the mornings for a nice long walk and inevidably both babies fall asleep in the stroller (dcg just started walking this week), so i have adjusted our schedule so we stay inside until after morning nap and then we will go outside to play in the snow or something. If we can`t make it outside because of weather we will chase each other or dance or something else reall physical so they get nice and tired!! 3

That's terrific gravy .... Sounds like a good start ..... Looking forward to the next update ; )

I think you are way too invested in whether or not they sleep. They feed off of the energy you are putting out and it is confusing them and esclating them. Pick a time to lay them down and a time for them to get up. If they sleep they sleep. If they cry they cry. Just give them the TIME to do it and don't be invested into what they do during the time.

I think toddlers that age need privacy and time to themselves. They need a couple of good blocks of time every day to just be by themselves and sleep, talk, cry, coo whatever. They need a break from the adults and the other kids. I would give them some privacy for about 1.5 hours in the morning and 2.5 hours in the afternoon. Let them freely decide what to do during that time and don't interfere. Just make sure they are safe, have a full belly, and warm.

You are always going to have children who don't agree with what you want them to do or what you think is best for them. It comes with parenting and child care. It's OKAY for them both to protest and express their own feelings. We need MORE of that in our lives. We need kids to learn to express their little feelings without an adult interfering in it or changing it by our own actions.

Do what YOU think is right and don't worry about the opinion of a toddler. They are babies and they don't know what is best for themselves. Giving them the decision will always lead to chaos. We are their leaders and we know best. Have confidence in your schedule. Have confidence in your care.

As promised, here's an update of how our afternoon nap went yesterday.
DCG - cried for about 20-30 minutes, slept for 40-50 and cried for the rest of naptime.
DS - cried for almost 2 hours :-( napped for 45 minutes. DS also woke up twice through the night last night, which hasn't happened in months.
I'll let everyone know how today goes.
Again, thank you to everyone whO has taken the time to offer advice and support. You have no idea how much more optimistic I feel knowing that I have a community of experts to go to for things like this.

good for you gravy for sticking to the plan. It's so much easier to give in and give the child what they think they need. Like whisper said....we know whats best for the little ones, not them. It really is a rarity in this day and age to have a parent follow through on what is right rather than give in for the ease of it! although a little stressful especially with your own child, listening to their cry during certain times of the day, like nap time. It needs to happen, otherwise you enable them to manipulate any situation which can become a very bad habit later in life. stick to it! your doing a great job! nothing wrong with a little cry. my mom always said...."helps their lungs" ;)

I just wanted to post another update to my napping situation in case any other providers turn to this thread for advice or help with naptime woes.
I am very, very happy to say that I have been sticking with a very strict naptime routine since my original post. Our naptime is at exactly the same time everyday, I sing the same 'naptime' song, read the same books and put the kids to bed in the same order every naptime. Today they have all been sleeping for 1.5hours. DCG just woke up - I can hear her chatting, and I will go in when she gets louder (which she will, she is my 'screamer') and gently remind her to 'shhh' for her friends, close the door and leave her until nap/quiet time is up!
The trick with my DS is to put him in his crib and I just sit in the chair until he falls asleep. I don't engage him in any way - I don't talk to him, look at him, nothing - I just sit in the room. When I first did it it took him about 25 minutes to fall asleep. Now it takes him less than 5 minutes!
When i originally posted I was really struggling with how to cope with the constant screaming/crying and not getting a break. Today, I am so happy to report that during my break I was able to email some friends, enjoy a cup of tea, do a load of laundry and tidy up the lunch dishes all with a quiet, relaxed ambiance because everyone was sleeping! YAY!!!

Glad to hear gravy .... Isn't silence wonderful ??!!??!? .... Be proud that you stuck to it ; )

I'm happy to hear that you have figured out the right methods for your group and your home. It's different for each of us but parents are always asking me how I get their child to sleep every day when they can't get them to sleep on weekends. My answer is always the same: routine. I think that's what you have discovered is the key too.

Routine Routine Routine is key and they will all adjust in there due time!

I'm Happy you found your solution.