Provider over ratio - what are the consequences?

My daycare provider has a scheduled play date once a week with another provider. They switch between going over to each others homes and in the summer they meet at the park. It hadn't occurred to me before I found this site that this technically is not allowed as between them they have more than 5 kids plus their own at one house and it doesn't matter that there are two of them. Previously I thought as long as there was one adult for every five kids it was all good.
I really like my daycare provider and would never say anything. But what if someone else reports them? Would they be shut down?
TIA

This is a very gray area in the regulations as there is no "written" rule about having playdates with other providers as far as i know. I wouldn't say meeting at the park is an issue because there are quite often multiple children and adults there and as long as she is able to adequately supervise then I don't see a problem. When my friend did home daycare, she would bring her crew here occasionally and there was never a problem, mind you she usually came when she had less than five children.

I meet other caregivers at the parks and there were times when we had 4-5 caregivers and a whole lot of children. I've stopped that because there was one caregiver who didn't really watch her children very well and because it's too hard to keep track of my 5 daycare children. I prefer meeting one caregiver at a time. I don't take any chances with safety and I'm constantly counting to 5 so prefer parks where I can see them at all times.

As far as meeting in one of our homes I have done that before but when we each only have a few children in attendance and we only have a visit like this once in a while because we know it's iffy. It's much better to meet at parks or the library or a place like the Ontario Early Years Centre.

Can you have an honest talk with your caregiver about the visits and your concerns for her? Let her know that you wouldn't want anything to happen to her and her daycare because you value her and she shouldn't be insulted. Maybe she's unaware of the rules.

This was a grey area up until the pool incident in Orleans and now the ministry has come right out and said that playdates are illegal because it means more than 5 daycare children in a premise and the yard is included as the premise meaning it is ok at the city park next door but not at the home of another daycare provider. In Ontario you need to be aware of this. There is a very good chance your caregiver is not aware. There is a copy of a letter sent from the ministry outlining the information on the www.ccprn.com website that you could print and share with your caregiver. Once you have made them aware then you will have to decide how you feel if they don't stop. Do be aware that if anything were to happen to your child during one of these visits that your caregivers daycare insurance would be void as would the home insurance of the person whose house it was.

I believe the process is involved but would be basically the provider is randomally visited by someone representing the ministry and given a warning. If/when they are visited a second time and they are not compliant, they are given a $2000 fine and basically shut down. Since the death of a child at a home daycare out in Orleans, ON where there were a bunch of daycare providers visiting another daycare provider's home with a pool the Ministry of ON has become very adamant that playdates at other daycare providers homes are not following the Days Nurseries Act rule of 5 in the home, doesn't matter how many adults are in the home. Home/Daycare Business Insurance companies have become stricter as well. Many companies will not insure a provider if they have a pool or a trampoline on their property. I know many providers in the Ottawa area are very aware of this due to all the media attention but maybe not elsewhere in the province. Do try to have a discussion with your provider.

I understand your concern, however having play dates at each others homes or at playgrounds does not count as being over the Provider Ratio. If you are concerned speak with your daycare provider and voice your concern. I am a daycare provider and my parents are very happy with the play dates that we have with other providers, however I also make sure that I am aware of where my children are that are in my care at all times. I also work hard at keeping communication open between myself and my daycare parents so that they feel comfortable speaking with me about concerns they have.

Someone, I don't know where you are located, but in Ontario, you may NOT have a playdate at another person's home unless there are a maximum of 5 children other than your own. So, if the other caregiver has 2 children of her own, and 2 in care, and you have 2 of your own, and 3 in care, you would be fine because there are only 5 children other than your own. Even though there are two providers in attendance, it is a maximum of 5 children per location, NOT per provider. That is why many of us meet at public places like early learning centres or parks.

Treeholm is right. When I opened my daycare I called the ministry because I found the Day Nursery Act was not really clear to me. Anyhoo they confirmed to me that playdates are NOT ALLOWED if there is more than 5 children per location and that is all. I also met with an agency and they confirmed the same thing using the pool incident as reference.
My first born went to a homedaycare and they were 2 providers in the home still only 5 children were attending daycare. So I would advise my daycare provider. Altought it may not bother you it is illegal and probably would void any insurance they may carry. As a parent and caregiver, I would never risk it.

Agree with the other ladies. Playdates in the home with over 5 children is illegal and not worth all the risks involved. The only time I allow another provider to come to my home with daycare children is if we are both down kids for the day and ALWAYS under the 5!

its a shame because this is our job and you are stuck inside your home. sometimes it would be nice to have interaction.

I meet other caregivers at the library or at parks for playdates. It isn't difficult to set up this type of playdate and it's wonderful to have another adult to talk with while the children play. Sometimes we feel very isolated working alone in our homes so it's important to be able to reach out to others. But don't risk your entire business and livelihood by being misinformed!

I have to disagree with other posters. I have also called for clarification regarding the Days Nursery Act and was told that the Days Nursery Act does not specify regarding "play dates". I guess it has to do with who you are speaking to.

If you are uncomfortable with your daycare provider talk to her, or change.

As for me, my parents are extremely happy and supportive of all my activities I do with their children. It's unfortunate that people think it's necessary to nit pick about a play date. If you are this worried, maybe you should stay home and be with your children every day or put them in a daycare center where their ratios are much higher and they do not receive the necessary hugs and comfort when they need it.

Stop picking on home daycare providers who treat your children as their own. Be happy that there are those of us out there that look after your children for 10, 11 and 12 hours a day while you are working outside the home.

Someone my guess is that you have obviously talked to someone who has not kept up to date with their employee training at the Ministry ... which sadly happens with employees who miss work due to illness, vacation or perhaps were off on maternity/parental leave while 'clarification' memos were issued and so forth to government employees about issues with interpretation of their poorly worded DNA but this issue has been clarified.

It is NOW clearly written right on the Ministry of Education website in BLACK AND WHITE that it is illegal for those providing informal childcare to have play dates at other providers houses! Scroll down the link to informal childcare ... and this is what it states!

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http://www.edu.gov.on.ca/childcare/faqs.html
I look after five children and my neighbour looks after five other children. Can we get together with the children for playdates at each other's homes?
No. If you are providing care for more than five children under the age of 10, even if there are two adults present, you need to be licensed by the Ministry of Education. ...

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Very hard to 'interpret' that for anything other than it states = no play dates at each others homes! So while many of us providers agree it SUCKS and personally I think it is a rather illogical way to address the tragedy of what happened in Orleans but the fact is that it is been clarified as ILLEGAL and IMO as professionals it is our job to ensure that we are following the law otherwise we give ALL providers a bad name and fuel the fire with ammunition for media with an agenda like MARKETPLACE to do more horrible documentaries about the evil of an unregulated childcare industry putting children at risk :rolleyes: IMO we need to ensure we are self regulating ourselves through the rules that DO apply to us voluntarily otherwise with give the government the power they need to argue we should ALL BE REGULATED ... an argument they seem to be winning in the court of public opinion!

Also from what I have heard from other peers 'renewing' insurance is that the insurance industry has totally cracked down on home childcare ryder definitions and their willingness on how many children they will provide a ryder for ... hearing lots of grumbling from providers whose carrier use to provide policies for 5 plus your own but are no longer doing so when it comes time to renew and their carrier is now going with the 5 MAX of the 'regulated' industry making it harder for some providers :( As well as those who have had pools with no problem are having issues at time of renewal being told they will not offer the home childcare ryder with the pool.

Rules and regulations change and it is vital to ensure that we, as professionals with a desire to stay self regulated, stay on top of them by either belong to our local professional associations who are 'kept in the know' and pass on to members or ensuring that we as individuals have book marked all the government legislation websites and regularly check back for 'updates'!

Thank you all. I do appreciate your responses and reminding me that I do need to continually stay on top of reviewing the Days Nursery Act.

My apologies for any frustration/aggravation I may have caused. Unfortunately due to a frustrating moment with a new dcp regarding $ (of course) :( I allowed my personal frustration to show during my response. If I could remove those two posts I would, but unfortunately do not know how to do this. I am quite embarrassed that I allowed myself to behave in such a manner. :o

Please accept my apologies and know that I appreciate all the information that you shared yesterday.

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My apologies for any frustration/aggravation I may have caused. Unfortunately due to a frustrating moment with a new dcp regarding $ (of course) I allowed my personal frustration to show during my response. If I could remove those two posts I would, but unfortunately do not know how to do this. I am quite embarrassed that I allowed myself to behave in such a manner.

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don't worry about it. I and may others have done the same. We all forgive each other when it happens. You will find that this form is very understanding when it comes to letting out frustration then apologize for it.
I hope the rest of your day goes great. :)

Yup no worries Someone ~ the Day Nursery Act is like reading a foreign language ;) Not to mention that this particular issue has been confusing for all even those 'regulating' it ... cause when I started out in home childcare I was with a regulated agency who actually promoted play dates among providers and paired us up with others in our area to help us avoid isolation ... my own insurance company had initially told me it was COOL cause each of our ryders would cover our business on or off site ... so even within the 'industry' there were huge misinterpretations among this particular rule because it was shortly AFTER that the incident in Orleans Ontario occurred and suddenly memos were flying around about it being a NO NO to have play dates and when I called my insurance company to clarify I got a 'nope you cannot have more than 5 children on your premise so unless your play date involves less than 5 children total regardless of the adults present don't have one' :(

Personally I think it is stupid and an example of government regulations that MAKE NO SENSE at promoting quality childcare or safety for children because the reality is that horrible tragedy of the drowning in Orleans could have occurred in a 'public park' with pooled water and a life guard on duty in fact in Chatham Ontario that very thing happened at a Y not to long ago where a little girl drown during a birthday party ... plus really what is the difference between someones 'private property' and the local park as far as playdates and safety? Fact is private backyards are typically SAFER cause they are fenced, have equipment that is more age appropriate to 'daycare age children' verses school age children and we have access to running water and bathrooms and the likelihood of finding a used needle, used condom or broken glass in your own yard is far less than in a public park ;)

I didnt read everyone's response to this yet, but to my opinion, the Government has a stick way up his you know what. What is the big FN deal to meet with others for playdates. Oh no no we should all be confined to our space and be lonely and dont show the children any social skills at all. Do they want us to go crazy coo coo by being stuck 5 days a week with small children and no contacts with other providers and maybe make our days and job more interesting ''FUMING'' !!!

Sorry I'm ventilating here. I just really do not have the Government at the right place in my mind when it comes to child care laws and procedures. THEY DONT CARE that anyone can open a daycare even people far from qualified (I've heard some stories oh my !!) They dont even care if the providers have a safe environment for the children and such and such... when I opened my daycare I called to have them come and inspect and they said NO. They will let just anybody care for children, but then they put such laws about not having more children under a roof, PE-LEASE.

You know they say no more then 5 children per home daycare without counting your own kids. That means that a mother who has 4 children of her own can have 5 more (of any age at that... so she could have 5 new borns,... to be dramatic here) that means she would care for 9 children. When the provider with no children of her own (or older children at school age) can only have 5 and thats it ! Wow that makes sense .... NOT !!!!

Sorry it makes me so mad !!! I'm not too crazy about the Quebec Government either but, coming from Montreal and having my kids in home daycares for years, beside the PAY CHECK thats pretty bad for them... other then that, the rules are much less complicated. In fact, whats complicated is to actually start a daycare because they check EVERYTHING. You have to fill out piles of papers and questions before you can open and if your space is not to requirements, you cant open. At least they care about the well being of young children !!

Wow thats heavy for a Friday. Sorry ladies, HAPPY FRIDAY !! and to some HAPPY MARCH BREAK !!

Oh and I might add, that I dont care about what other providers do... if they have more then 5 and such. If the kids are happy and well taking care of, why not. In centers they have 8-9-10 and they dont take all such good care. I've been there and I saw it.

I completly agree that the law makes no sense however as Reggio pointed out I think it's important to apply as best we can to prevent giving others a bad name and cause for bashing.

''Very hard to 'interpret' that for anything other than it states = no play dates at each others homes! So while many of us providers agree it SUCKS and personally I think it is a rather illogical way to address the tragedy of what happened in Orleans but the fact is that it is been clarified as ILLEGAL and IMO as professionals it is our job to ensure that we are following the law otherwise we give ALL providers a bad name and fuel the fire with ammunition for media with an agenda like MARKETPLACE to do more horrible documentaries about the evil of an unregulated childcare industry putting children at risk IMO we need to ensure we are self regulating ourselves through the rules that DO apply to us voluntarily otherwise with give the government the power they need to argue we should ALL BE REGULATED ... an argument they seem to be winning in the court of public opinion!''

Someone, don't worry...I am sure we have all regretted a post here and there! We come here to vent, get advice, add opinions etc...I am sure nobody will judge you for an error.
I agree that the rule of no playdates is illogical and kids are often safer having a playdate ina providers back yard than at the park but, as others have said, I follow the rule because I wouldn't want to risk my business over it. I have a provider who lives across the street and I would LOVE to be able to combine the kids for activities such as music etc so that the cost would be low and we could have some lessons come into the daycare, but I cannot because of the rule. I live on a corner lot however with a huge front yard that is technicaly mostly the city's land (we own about 10 feet of it, the rest is theirs)...so I can legally have my neighbour and her daycare come to play in the front...crazy, but as long as they stay ten feet from the house, we are good ;) I will only likely do this in winter becaues the snow mountains all around keep the kids contained and so it is safe...we are not allowed to fence it unfortunately ;(

I'm one of those crazy people with 4 kids of my own who also had 5 daycare kids always and managed just fine and back before some of the rules changed also had a couple over age 10 siblings in the summer including one who was legally blind but managed remarkably. Insurance covered us for that cause it was what was legal.

There is a big difference between a person with 4 kids who has experience at the different ages and stages and presumably a house large enough to handle them all and their toys and stuff looking after 5 more kids than a person who has only their own baby but wants to stay home and takes in 5 kids never having experienced the need for safety gates or what a toddler can climb on or get into. It isn't about how many children are in care it is about the ability of the caregiver to manage them all. Some do well and some do not.

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Originally Posted by playfelt

I'm one of those crazy people with 4 kids of my own who also had 5 daycare kids always and managed just fine and back before some of the rules changed also had a couple over age 10 siblings in the summer including one who was legally blind but managed remarkably. Insurance covered us for that cause it was what was legal.

There is a big difference between a person with 4 kids who has experience at the different ages and stages and presumably a house large enough to handle them all and their toys and stuff looking after 5 more kids than a person who has only their own baby but wants to stay home and takes in 5 kids never having experienced the need for safety gates or what a toddler can climb on or get into. It isn't about how many children are in care it is about the ability of the caregiver to manage them all. Some do well and some do not.

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thats me too. and acually I manage it really well. I love having all the kids. But I did get rid of the SA because they drove me crazy. But in the summer I have 4 of mine (they are now older) and 5 littles and I love it. some people can manage and others can't

I must admit I don't agree with the rules about max of five. My friends and I had our kids close together and we met almost every week for playdates. We had 9 kids between the three of us!

I raised 4 children and they each had about 3 best friends so when I came home from the office there would often be about 20 children in my house. I couldn't keep food in the house and it was quite normal to have tons of kids around for many, many years because my oldest is 11 years older than the youngest.

However, I'm happiest with 4 children in the daycare and 5 seems like lots of work. But I live in a much smaller home now that my own children are all grown. If you have lots and lots of space that's a whole different story.

Hey everyone, I am new to the forum, and a Daycare provider in Guelph. I understand the rule about not having play dates with other providers, but what about mommy groups..do they factor in or is it play dates in general?

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Originally Posted by Robin Taylor

Hey everyone, I am new to the forum, and a Daycare provider in Guelph. I understand the rule about not having play dates with other providers, but what about mommy groups..do they factor in or is it play dates in general?

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It has to do with total number of children in the home. You can have another mom come and bring her own children but once she brings children that are not hers those count in your ratio of 5.

The rule is you can only have 5 DAYCARE children, so if the other children in your mommy group are with their parents, they don't count in that number and it is legal. You could invite another mother over with her own kids and you would be fine and legal.

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Originally Posted by Robin Taylor

Hey everyone, I am new to the forum, and a Daycare provider in Guelph. I understand the rule about not having play dates with other providers, but what about mommy groups..do they factor in or is it play dates in general?

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Originally Posted by sunnydays

The rule is you can only have 5 DAYCARE children, so if the other children in your mommy group are with their parents, they don't count in that number and it is legal. You could invite another mother over with her own kids and you would be fine and legal.

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Sunny days, this is what I've always thought, but I've heard differences of opinions on this. Is this the case? Can anyone else confirm or does any one else interpret this the same way?

I have my step children here during the summer and am stressing over what to do with them as they technically make me "over limit" But their dad will be here, so maybe I won't be over limit?

Thank you all :)

Phone Community Services in Ontario and see what their view is.

Here in Nova Scotia, in the event of play dates, it's permitted. As long as the two providers have separate addresses for their own businesses, and aren't actually running as one day care on a daily business, play dates are actually encouraged for the social skills that come with mixing with
a wider group of children. However, both carers must be present during the entire play date.

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Originally Posted by apples and bananas

Sunny days, this is what I've always thought, but I've heard differences of opinions on this. Is this the case? Can anyone else confirm or does any one else interpret this the same way?

I have my step children here during the summer and am stressing over what to do with them as they technically make me "over limit" But their dad will be here, so maybe I won't be over limit?

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That isn't how it works in Nova Scotia.

The NS day care regulations state "no more than 6 children including the carer's own if younger than 12 years".

Now it's slightly different depending on if registered or not.

The easiest way to explain is for an unregistered carer, it boils down to no more than 6 children per address. It doesn't matter if there is another adult in the house. The limit is 6 - period. In the instance where your step children are there over the summer, if you were in NS, and if those step children are younger than 12, then they would be included in the day care numbers.

However, if you are a registered provider, providing that your step children were being cared for by another adult in another part of the house and had no interaction with the day care, then you would likely get away with it since they aren't permanent residents in the house and could be considered visitors.

How is it nit picking. it is the LAW. as stupid as we may think it is, there is a reason why it a law. The same could be said for drinking and driving.
The whole attitude "Well as long as you don't get caught", is the reason we are in this mess to begin with. The same can be said with this whole bill that we are fighting.

I still believe it is a grey area. It is not actually "in" the act. They haven't made any "changes" to the act in regard to playmates. When you call the Ministry and ask them, they may tell you what they want you to do, but since it is not actually "in" the act, it is not illegal. If reported could the ministry come and tell you to stop it, yes. Now, if someone wants to bring up a link that shows the actual Day Nurseries Act stating that Private Home Child care Operators can not meet up with other Home Child are Operators for playmates, I would be glad to be educated:)

What does the daycare act actually say "now" as far as number of children and ages for nonregistered home daycare

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Originally Posted by sandylynn

What does the daycare act actually say "now" as far as number of children and ages for nonregistered home daycare

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It depends which Province you live in.

In NS, we can't go over out numbers regardless of registration status, it's 6 including our own if our own are younger than 12 years BUT we may have play dates with other carer's providing it's not a daily event and this can happen in each other's homes. The ratio of 6 per carer has to be followed and it has to be a true play date not a routine part of every day where the whole business is run jointly.

Which Province are you in SandyLynn as you need to prefer to your own DC regulations.

province of Ontario

does anyone know the regulations for this in Alberta? I haven't been able to find much on it.

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does anyone know the regulations for this in Alberta? I haven't been able to find much on it.

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Try calling your local Community Services. I lucked in years back and got a contact and her direct line, although to be fair, when I've phoned the general number to ask for clarification on things, they've all been helpful. And no, I'm not registered - but Community Services (here at least) have to ensure those unregistered are following the conditions which permit an unregistered home so they've always been really helpful in explaining the grey areas.