Report a Daycare Home?

My girlfriend was visiting yesterday from another city and she has a 5 year old son. She was telling me about her sons provider and how great she is. Her husband was with us and said she always has a ton of kids there. I asked how many does she have, and they couldnt even tell me (like 9 or more). When I said no, thats not legal (she runs out of her home), they said its not like that, because her 12 yo daughter helps out sometimes. LMAO!!
I explained the 'laws' here in Ontario about not having more than 5 children per RESIDENCE, not care provider, and the laws about age limits, 1 under 1, 2 under 2 etc.
I didnt want to worry them and said oh well, whatever works for you, but as long as you know that she could be shut down at any time and fined $$ if somebody rats her out. I am still not convinced I will not report her myself....this just sounds ridiculous!!
Can somebody clarify, under what circumstances could you have more than 5 kids (not including your own). Do you need to be licensed? And this is a huge process is it not? What do you ladies think??

You're in Ontario. Yes, that provider is not operating legally. She is allowed FIVE children PLUS her own PER PRIMARY RESIDENCE. The number of caregivers does NOT matter. I don't care if you have 10 adults - you can only have FIVE Kids in care.

I would report her. I have in the past.

The reason I would report her is that when you see these news stories of atrocities in HOME daycare they are ALWAYS with these warehousers who have FAR too many kids in care. It is rarely, if ever, the providers operating legally. But, the media doesn't spin it that way - they just say HOME daycare is bad etc etc. And well, that makes ME look bad and hurts MY home daycare business.

Report her. I would - in a heartbeat.

Shame on your girlfriend for not having more of a vested interest in the very place she leaves her child every day.

By Ontario Law:
You may have 5 children not including your own under the age of 10. If there are children that she cares for over the age of 10, they are NOT included in numbers. You are right about having only the 5 children not including your own in ONE residence.

Through an agency the rules change. You're still only allowed the 5 children not including your own under the age of 10, BUT it goes for ages. 1 under the age of 1, 2 under the age of 2, and so on. I think there's some more rules, but I'm not with an agency, so I can't say for certain!

I would ask your gf how many children are the providers own, and ask their ages. Then figure out the math before jumping to conclusions!

If the math doesn't sort out, I personally would report it.

Nine might seem like a lot but I am mom to 4 kids so add 5 daycare kids and that equals 9. Back when my own were younger I also had two 11 year olds who were siblings of kids in care so a group of 11 of us was the summer norm. Also back then it was not considered wrong for my own kids to have a friend over to play - ideally outside for a short period of time so at pick up time it was common to see the entire street in the vicinity of my house - usually it was a hockey game on the road but they did it near my house cause I was the adult home. I just wasn't responsible for anyone my son was out there playing with but did dole out the first aid and discipline as needed.

But they have finally clarified the rules based on new tragedies so this would never be acceptable now. We are talking 10-15 years ago here.

Now it is 5 kids only. Unless she is with an agency the age mix doesn't matter regardless of how old her own kids are.

Will you be able to report it and have something happen without your friend knowing it came from you. Since you just warned them it could be touchy for the friendship but the lives of the children should be more important than anything. Could you talk some more to your friend and maybe even have her bring it up with the caregiver to make her aware of the rules and it would also give her a heads up to be looking for alternate care if the complaint is filed. She should be the one moving her child and filing the complaint but if you ask her to and she won't you will have to tell her that for the integrity of the profession you don't have a choice. I agree with what was written that it is the bad image it gives us all when there is an issue in an illegal daycare.

Sorry Judy but this comment really got me pretty fired up. I think that before anyone reports anyone they should get there facts 100%. She maybe caring for 5 kids and may have 3 or 4 kids of her own. My little one whet to an at home daycare where this was the case and she was in a very fun, loving, safe environment. I wouln't have had it any other way! PERIOD!

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Originally Posted by Judy Trickett

You're in Ontario. Yes, that provider is not operating legally. She is allowed FIVE children PLUS her own PER PRIMARY RESIDENCE. The number of caregivers does NOT matter. I don't care if you have 10 adults - you can only have FIVE Kids in care.

I would report her. I have in the past.

The reason I would report her is that when you see these news stories of atrocities in HOME daycare they are ALWAYS with these warehousers who have FAR too many kids in care. It is rarely, if ever, the providers operating legally. But, the media doesn't spin it that way - they just say HOME daycare is bad etc etc. And well, that makes ME look bad and hurts MY home daycare business.

Report her. I would - in a heartbeat.

Shame on your girlfriend for not having more of a vested interest in the very place she leaves her child every day.

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Just to clarify, if you're with an agency, your own kids under 10 are included in the 5 and ages matter. Privately, ages don't matter but you can only have 5 plus your own kids. As someone else said, I would get the facts straight first as it sounds like your friends don't even know the number of kids...maybe it seems like more than it is to them because they only have one. It could be very damaging to the daycare provider's reputation if you have her investigated for nothing.

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Originally Posted by Skysue

Sorry Judy but this comment really got me pretty fired up. I think that before anyone reports anyone they should get there facts 100%. She maybe caring for 5 kids and may have 3 or 4 kids of her own. My little one whet to an at home daycare where this was the case and she was in a very fun, loving, safe environment. I wouln't have had it any other way! PERIOD!

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Seriously. Good Lord. I'm pretty sure the OP has enough sense (because she seems quite a sensible, smart person to me given her past posts) to find out from her friend how many kids the provider has of her OWN. And I am also sure that knowing how many kids of their own a provider has would be something this girlfriend would know.

I think everyone else here understood that in my post I was referring to kids in CARE. And sorry, but if you are over the limit then you are operating ILLEGALLY and also sorry, but if a parent knows this then THEY are just as much at fault as the daycare provider.

Anyone who knows me also knows I am VERY pro-provider. So to make the assumption that I would recommend anyone just report their collegues without justification is absurd.

I AM pro-provider - but for those providers who are operating LEGALLY and who are treating the kids right.

Judy,


I know you are well respected on this board and I truly love your blog. It just got me fired up becuase there wasn't enough info in the OP backing up how many of the providers own kids were hers only that a 12 year old daughter helps out! I am someone who feels that its important to get all facts in place before making any calls on someone! As it's someones life and job on the line. Even if it checked out to be legit thats an awful call to make.

P.S sorry I can't spell to save my life!

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Originally Posted by Judy Trickett

Seriously. Good Lord. I'm pretty sure the OP has enough sense (because she seems quite a sensible, smart person to me given her past posts) to find out from her friend how many kids the provider has of her OWN. And I am also sure that knowing how many kids of their own a provider has would be something this girlfriend would know.

I think everyone else here understood that in my post I was referring to kids in CARE. And sorry, but if you are over the limit then you are operating ILLEGALLY and also sorry, but if a parent knows this then THEY are just as much at fault as the daycare provider.

Anyone who knows me also knows I am VERY pro-provider. So to make the assumption that I would recommend anyone just report their collegues without justification is absurd.

I AM pro-provider - but for those providers who are operating LEGALLY and who are treating the kids right.

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Originally Posted by Skysue

Judy,


I know you are well respected on this board and I truly love your blog. It just got me fired up becuase there wasn't enough info in the OP backing up how many of the providers own kids were hers only that a 12 year old daughter helps out! I am someone who feels that its important to get all facts in place before making any calls on someone! As it's someones life and job on the line. Even if it checked out to be legit thats an awful call to make.

P.S sorry I can't spell to save my life!

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If you go back and read all of the home daycare deaths in the last five years (this is something I spend a lot of time on - I want to know HOW and WHY kids die or are seriously harmed in daycare. Because learning WHY helps me to prevent myself and other providers from ever have that happening in their daycares) you will notice a trend. And that trend is that in nearly all the cases the daycare provider was either not operating within numbers or in breach of some sort of state or provincial mandate. The fact are the facts.

Every time a child dies in care it hurts everyone - the family, the child and every single home daycare provider who is doing it RIGHT. I don't want kids dying in daycare and I don't want to pay the price professionally for those who are operating illegally.

I understand your passion. As a parent myself I understand. But, once you have been a daycare provider for years and years your attitude will likely change. You will look around and be utterly appalled at some of the stuff that happens in home daycare across North America.

I think you are correct and it is ALWAYS imperative to do your research first, and I stated that in my previous post. But, as is the case with anything, even IF the ministry visited you, if you are doing nothing wrong then you really have nothing to fear. Even though I would never maliciously call the ministry on a provider I would far rather a parent or provider call the ministry if there is serious concern and find it was not warranted rather than to NOT have called and then see a news story on a child who died in her care.

Kids die in daycare. It's a fact. Nobody wants to talk about it but it's undeniable true and we, as professionals have a duty to prevent that from happening whenever, and wherever possible.

By the way, as to your remark about being "respected'. I would hope that NO ONE would ever take my word over someone else's. And I genuinely mean that. It is my only hope to help providers become better at their jobs and assist them whenever possible. Everyone should have a voice and be heard.

I know this can be a passionate topic. It is a tragedy when kids suffer and die.
Please remain respectful

To add in my original question, The provider has 2 kids of her own. I would never consider reporting a provider unless I have all of my facts straight.
Thank you so much for your passion in this topic, it is alarming to us all when this happens, both as a parent, and as a fellow daycare provider following the rules everyday.
It is astonishing that parents do not know these laws and are 'okay' with seeing all the kids in the home with one parent.
I will advise what the outcome is of all this.

Just for anyone who is uncertain -

From the Ministry of Child and Youth Services website:

"In the Province of Ontario, you may care for up to five children under the age of 10 years, in addition to your own children, at any one time. Any premises that exceeds this number must be licensed as a day nursery and meet all of the requirements as outlined in the Day Nurseries Act (R.S.O. 1990, c.D.2, O.Reg 262)
As an informal caregiver, there is no restriction as to the ages of children that you may care for, under the age of 10 years of age (i.e. you may care for any combination of infants, toddlers, preschoolers and school-aged children) as long as you don't exceed five children, in addition to your own, at any one time.

If you are a provider with a licensed Private Home Day Care agency there are some restrictions that must be adhered to, as outlined in the Day Nurseries Act. If you have children of your own that are under the age of six years, those children must be counted as part of the five children in care. If the agency places a child in your home that is over the age of 10 years, this child must also be counted as part of the five children in care. Of those five, the following restrictions apply:
* two handicapped children
* two children who are under two years of age
* three children who are under three years of age
* one handicapped child and one child who is under two years of age
* one handicapped child and two children who are over two years of age but under three years of age"

I'd encourage your friend to report her first, but let her know that if she doesn't, you feel compelled to do so yourself. I agree with the previous posters - if anything were ever to happen, this would come down on ALL of us. Sad, but true.

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Originally Posted by mamaof4

I know this can be a passionate topic. It is a tragedy when kids suffer and die.
Please remain respectful

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I thought we WERE being respectful. No one is attacking anyone here. We all share a common sentiment - and that is quality, legal care for the children.

Again, I think that the passionate responses bely only the fact that we all care so very much about the kids we care for. And that's a good thing!

If indeed I knew for sure that she was in fact operating illegally, I would absolutely report her. 5 kids plus your own is a VERY reasonable amount of children to have under your care. In Alberta, our regulations are a little different and we aren't allowed to have as many as that. I understand that there are different scenarios, and we don't know ALL the details. But the fact is, those regulations are in place for a reason. I may be willing to bend the rules for ONE or TWO extra children, because my oldest children don't require my "care" anymore, but they still count in my ratios. But that is as far as I would take it. And even on those days, I usually get a second pair of eyes around, like my husband.
We have to watch each others backs, but we also have to watch out for the kids most importantly and our industry as a whole.

I have to say that even as a new provider, I agree with what Judy said about being astounded at what goes on in some home daycares. Once I became a provider, other providers have told me things that have shocked me and made me glad that I no longer need to put my kids in daycare! Nothing so far that warrants reporting, but, for example, one provider told me that she has a schedule that she shows parents in interviews and then throws it back in the drawer and does not follow any of it in reality. To me that is absolutely wrong! You don't have to follow a "schedule" to be a good daycare provider (I'm talking about craft time, circle time, etc, all scheduled in), but you do have to be honest about what you are providing so parents can decide for themselves. This is just one example of the kinds of things I hear about already and so I wonder about the things they don't tell me that go on behind closed doors. If indeed, she is operating over her legal limit and this fact is established, then she should be reported.

I hope no one thinks I was attacking either? For me I respect and live by the rules as well. I do understand the stats and the bottom line is the childerns safety! I was just pointing out getting all facts before taking any type of action as that just wouldn't be cool!

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Originally Posted by Judy Trickett

I thought we WERE being respectful. No one is attacking anyone here. We all share a common sentiment - and that is quality, legal care for the children.

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I like the idea of talking to your friend and about the place you are in. Just as we would have to report a case of child abuse if we knew about it, there is an element of this story that is almost the same since it isn't just about the situation being against the law it is about whether the situation is safe for all the children. Ideally the complaint would come from your friend but barring that a complaint from someone not in the situation would also help to save relationships for those involved as in no hard feelings. Just hoping it doesn't damage the relationship you have with your friend.

I may be wrong but I'll bet compared to other daycares in the area the price is extremely reasonable at this daycare. I could charge less per child too if I had more of them. Price so often dictates where a parent puts their child and not whether that is the best place for them.

I do agree that operating within the standards set out by the government is vital to avoid issues with insurance coverage and consequences for operating illegally. I do have to say though that when I started I worked with an agency. I decided to interview other day homes within my area that were checked by my agency to advise clients as to my preferred day homes for back up care. I was astounded at what I saw. The agency only required the premises to be safe and when I went they were not safe. The providers know within a week or so when the agency is coming by to check, and apparently I did not visit in that time frame. I left that agency within a month of this experience.

There were providers that were neglectful with only a few children from what I saw. Exceptional care is not based solely upon numbers of children, but with the value system in place with the provider.

There are many parents that have twelve children or more with one provider....mom. If mom is involved with the children and giving great care, all children are maintained well. I do think that the parent would be spread quite thin in the area of quality time with each child alone, but that does not mean any children are at risk of physical harm.

I personally would not report any day home unless my child was in care there. What others do is none of my business and people's perceptions is also not my concern. How others view day homes based upon the behaviors of others is not something I can do much about. The dysfunctional thinking that creates one to group all day homes in the same category is not something I can fight against. I can try to change the status of every day home out there, but the thinking of individuals that groups all in the same category remains.

What is my concern is that I operate legally, with strong values and that I am the best I can be. If I am concentrating on what others are doing, I am robbing myself of the most valuable resource I have to grow within my self and my business......emotio nal energy.

Hmmmm..... respectfully, Clep, I must beg to differ.
I would never EVER report someone unless I knew ALL the facts, as I stated. But if I knew for sure that the children in someone's care were unsafe, I would absolutely not hesitate.
You are right, many families have upwards of 10, 12 or more kids. And yes, mom or dad is the sole caregiver for them at many times day to day. But those families (most of them) do not have 10 or more 1 to 2 year olds in their care. And they are caring for their own children, not being entrusted with the wellbeing of someone ELSE's child. Many of those families have teenagers and preteens around, extra eyes on the little ones, even if they aren't "caring" for them.
As I have said, in other posts, etc; being licensed, with an agency, having all kinds of paperwork or diplomas, DOES NOT necessarily equal quality care. I would turn a blind eye to someone bending the rules if it seemed as though the children were not the ones catching the short end of the stick. Hey, I have been over ratio on occasion! But I will never take more children than I feel is safe, no matter what the paycheque. It is each and every one of our responsibility to make sure that no kid is harmed while under care, because it hurts all of our credibility when that occurs.
I'm not going to get wrapped up in whether someone is feeding the children whole food, or providing daily age appropriate activities, or even smoking when in their own home or some such thing. But if I feel like a child is going to be seriously injured or killed, then there is no way I could ignore that.
In any case, we all have our opinions, and really it depends on the situation, right?? I think I will put my soap box back in the closet, where it belongs..... lol.

I am a provider in Ontario. You are allowed 5 who are NOT related to you. I can have 5 kids of my own and then take care of 5 and it is perfectly legal. Also you are incorrect in stating the ages that you are allowed. If you are a private home daycare you can have five 6 month old babies if you wanted to and that is also perfectly legal.
I know the laws in Alberta are different as I have a friend who actually does have 5 kids of her own and does daycare as well and she explained it all to me before, but I forget what the different rules are.

I havent read ALL the posts yet but wanted to say... in Alberta we are allowed 6 kids and that includes our own. I have 2 of my own and when I was full with 4 others... well lets just say.... why would you WANT over the limit??? Money? fine, but seriously? Going over the mandated limit isnt worth it if you get caught and the stress of more... well I just think its silly. They have numbers set so that each child gets the right amount of attention... accidents start happening if there are too many kids and only one adult to run interference. Mine ranged in ages and hving the 6 was good. I cant imagine if I had, had more in my house than that. :laugh:

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Originally Posted by playfelt

Price so often dictates where a parent puts their child and not whether that is the best place for them.

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That is unfortunately very very true!!! My prices have gone up a bit in the last 2 years as I didnt feel I was giving them good enough meals so I upped my prices $5 a day to do that. Some parents did like it, but... others were ok with it as they know I provide good care. It is crazy that pricing dictates where they go rather than the care!!

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Originally Posted by wolfpup

I havent read ALL the posts yet but wanted to say... in Alberta we are allowed 6 kids and that includes our own. I have 2 of my own and when I was full with 4 others... well lets just say.... why would you WANT over the limit??? Money? fine, but seriously? Going over the mandated limit isnt worth it if you get caught and the stress of more... well I just think its silly. They have numbers set so that each child gets the right amount of attention... accidents start happening if there are too many kids and only one adult to run interference. Mine ranged in ages and hving the 6 was good. I cant imagine if I had, had more in my house than that. :laugh:

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This information is wrong. It is 6 children NOT including your own if you are a private day home. I can't find the thread that this was discussed in. It's on here though.

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Originally Posted by wolfpup

They have numbers set so that each child gets the right amount of attention... accidents start happening if there are too many kids and only one adult to run interference. Mine ranged in ages and hving the 6 was good. I cant imagine if I had, had more in my house than that. :laugh:

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I actually disgree with this. I think that numbers (within reason) have nothing to do with quality of care. I think what each provider can handle has a human ability element to it. One provider might be able to successfully manage 8 kids while another can't manage more than 3 or 4. Just look at parents who can not seem to manage TWO kids!!

I think a lot of the numbers regulations are stupid. For example, here in Ontario you can have five kids PLUS your own. So, it doesn't matter if you have one child of your own or ten children of your own you can still have FIVE dckids.

So, for example, when I first started daycare my OWN kids were very, very young so, essentially I was "caring" for seven kids every day. Now that my own kids are older and do not require my care I can still only have five kids??? I think I have proven that I am fully capable of handling and managing 7 kids. Or, what about my provider friend who has FOUR kids of her own and when they were young basically had NINE kids??

See why I think the laws are flawed and stupid? They don't make sense and I can tell you from my own experience and that of close provider friends with their OWN kids (who were young at one time and IN the provider's daycare) that the number of kids really has NO impact on quality of care (again, within reason).

I honestly believe I could easily manage 8 kids on my own. I have more than two brain cells to rub together. I know I could never manage more than two "under 18 mth olds" at once with 6 other kids in care so I have the common sense to figure out what I can and can not handle with respect to numbers and ages of kids. And it won't matter how much you regulate numbers common sense and ability can NOT be regulated.

Quality PROVIDERS offer quality care - not just some arbitrary regulation set by some (likely) MEN who sit around board rooms who have changed nary a diaper in their days.

I'm not saying anyone should knowingly break the law. I'm just saying that the law is flawed and numbers do not equate quality or incidence of accidents etc.

There are recent cases of 'providers' who have had only one or two kids in their care and one of those kids dying while in daycare. It isn't about numbers. It's about ability and quality.

I totally agree with you Judy, the law is flawed. It doesn't matter how many of your own children you have you are still allowed 5 daycare kids. And although large families are not necessarily the norm now it does still happen. I think we need a nation wide standard for numbers, I personally know that I can handle more than five kids and I have on occasion. I also agree that the quality of care is paramount, and yes accidents and deaths can happen just as easily with only one child in care.

Would love to see some sort of universal standards across the country. Here in Ottawa we are so close to Quebec that we often have to remind people who move back and forth of what is allowed on one side of the river isn't on the other. In Quebec they can do the two caregiver and more kids form of daycare whereas in Ontario we can't.

I am one of those with 4 kids who always had 5 kids so 9 kids a day was the norm as well as a couple over age 10 siblings in the summer for a total of 11 and never batted an eye at it cause it was normal for me. I do think part of it though is that having 4 kids I had home, yard, toys and equipment for that many kids which made it easier to have 5 other kids join us. In comparison a mom that has decided to stay home with her one year old baby can still take 5 kids but has to start from scratch for equipment, toys and in most cases knowledge of what to expect from each age group. That is when accidents are more likely to happen as in not knowing when to have stairs blocked or misjudge how high a child can reach or how quick they can climb or get away at the park because they haven't experienced that with their own children yet.

Totally on the same page. I also have 4 kids, the oldest of whom are 10 and 8. At this point in time, they no longer require my "care" anymore. I am pretty much around just to make food, and ensure the house doesn't burn down, lol!
If I was a licensed dayhome, they would still count in my ratios, and therefore I could only take in 2 more kids. I can't make a living off that, long term. Hence, I am private.
And you're right that it's the provider, not how many children necessarily. Just a week or two ago, our city had a child almost drown at the local pool. He was there with the provider and only one other child!! She had never taken him swimming, had no idea what his capabilities were, and let him wander over to the other side of the pool. Yikes....

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Originally Posted by Judy Trickett

Report her. I would - in a heartbeat.

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I want to report my children's babysitter, but I don't know how to report and to whom should I report. Can you please direct me.

Three incidents in 1 day.
*Babysitter left me child in the care of her 16 year old daughter to go to her son's concert
*Babysitter's daughter fed my child a day old lunch and now my daughter has an upset stomach
* her son hit my daughter with a block right above the eye, my daughter according to the baby sitter, was almost passing out.


Thanks your help will be much appreciated.

marivana - I don't think those three things are really grounds for you to report your daycare provider. If you do not agree with the things your provider has done then I suggest that you look for a different provider.

A day old lunch. Have you never fed or eaten leftovers?

Accidents happen in daycare. Neither of those are reportable and would be a waste of someone's time. I'm not sure about the 16 year old being left with the kids.

If you're unhappy with her care look for someone new.

if the provider in question is not over (because she has 4 of her own) then even if she is reported she will "pass" with flying colors. Wouldn't you hate to be the person who knew she was over and something bad happened?

I agree...it sounds like you need to discuss things with her but I don't think she should be reported. I would ask about the 16 year old and if she does it again, to let you know. I don't think serving a day old lunch is neglect though. I cook on Sundays for most of the week for their daycare meals and no one has gotten sick from that.

A dayhome located in cranston....

...it's pure business (money)...
...the person who operates doesn't really have any experience in taking care of a baby (i mean taking care of her own baby)
...very strict when it comes to her policy/ rules but if its her she is so very lenient and wouldn't care to explain any issue given to her
...poor judgement on the condition of a baby (since she got no experience at all)
...read carefully about her policy (don't trust a verbal thing she'll say that she can or will do) at the end of the day she will bite your ass with her selfish contract. Make sure all are written. Don't be shy to ask or question or a policy...

Never knew a person exist...
Thanks and Godbless!

Frankly, it's the parents responsibility to read over the whole contract, discuss in detail anything they don't understand or agree with, and make sure they are comfortable with the experience level of their provider. And I don't know of a single provider who does this job for free...hate to break it to you, but while we all love children, we are obviously doing this to make a living and provide for our own families, just like why everyone else goes to work.