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Check out this article in the Ottawa Citizen. Quite disturbing to say the least :
http://www.ottawacitizen.com/news/ot...752/story.html
I am not surprised though...awhile back I was contacted by someone who was looking for care for her 4 year old because he was being physically held down on his cot at naptime with the caregivers knees on top of him :no:
Oh I know - it just makes my blood boil when people state that licenced daycares are so much "safer" :mad: I wish every daycare provider would attach this link to a letter that they write to their MP protesting the changes to the DNA that they want to ram through.
But it also tells us some things about children in general in the sense that a 4 year old is supposed to still be at an age when they obey the adults around them meaning if I say sit I expect them to sit, etc. Unfortunately kids are not being raised to respect any kind of authority. What was happening is for sure wrong but it has to make you wonder exactly what we are supposed to do with children that do not cooperate. with infants and toddlers I have more control because I have ways to restrain them such as in a highchair, stroller or playpen - ie tied into time out of sorts. But with an older child we are at their mercy - another good reason to stay with the little ones.
Sorry, but a lot of 4 year olds can't sleep during nap time and shouldn't be forced to if they can't,,, it doesn't show lack of respect on the children's part- but more on the adults side
With all the daycares I know, center or home based, 4 year olds are not forced to SLEEP, but they are required to lay still and quiet on their beds and REST, which they still most definitely need at 4 years old. And I agree with playfelt's comment that many kids today are not being raised to respect authority, and THAT is part of the issue here. Of course taping them to their beds is unacceptable (though any daycare provider who denies the idea has briefly crossed her mind when dealing with a child who won't cooperate is a liar, in my opinion, lol)... but most of us have the self-control and the good sense not to do anything like that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fearlessbaby
way too many loop holes in this story.
I don't know, before I side with anyone I think they should have looked into this situation a bit more.
if these children were bound with masking tape, wouldn't you think that someone would have noticed what is going on, parents are coming and going all day including where was manager, the administrator how about the other workers.
also kids can talk, esp. at 6 yrs old why didn't anyone say anything
also, it was only one parent who reported this???? what did the parent do when she saw this, did she call the police, cas (because thats abuse)
also how does this parent know that it happened on more than one occasion did she witness it, if she did then she is to blame
I'm wondering if there is some sort of a disgruntle parent thing going on too
No body was forcing the child to sleep. He was being asked to give his body a chance to lay still for a period of time to rest and relax and regroup. And that is necessary for a healthy brain. In most cases the time required is one hour or less for this age group.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fearlessbaby
This was totally about a power struggle in which the adults had non. That is not the way it should be. As the adults what we say should be what goes. There is a reason an adult is put in authority over a child.
I think we should respond to the reporter (kegan@ottawacitizen .ca) and discuss this issue. There should be more investigation before the issue is made public. Maybe the staff are in a crowed room with too many children, a situation that is not acceptable to those of us in independent home care situations (with good reason). I hate it when the child care provider is criticized before there is a proper investigation.
I agree that there are many unanswered questions re: the person who reported the problems, the person who did the taping, the person who stood by while it happened and the general layout of the room, the number of children trying to rest in the room, staff to child ratio during this rest period, the personality of the child(ren) in question...so many questions.
http://www.ottawacitizen.com/Daycare...752/story.html
If you scroll down under the story and the other ads there are comments that have been posted. Will be interesting to keep coming back over the next few days and see what is posted.
While I do not think it is ever okay to do something like taping kids down or holding them down, I see Playfelt's point as well. In my home daycare, I would never need to even daydream about such a thing because if no disciplinary measures are working then I would terminate the child as it would most likely be a case of parents not disciplining at home. Daycare centres don't have this leeway I am guessing, nor do schools and boy do I feel sorry for teachers these days! In my son's JK class there were so many disciplinary problems that when we went for our parent teacher interview, all the teacher had to say about our son was "He is so nice". My son has been kciked, hit, punched, bitten, etc by both girls and boys and he is in a good school and they are doing their best. It is sad that our society is getting to the point that kids are driving adults insane with bad behaviour and the adults don't seem to know how to turn the situation around. And another trend I have noticed is that most parents seem to think their kids should no longer nap when they turn 3 or maybe 4 max...so they are not napping at home or having any downtime at all. I wonder what recourse daycare centres have for kids who refuse to lay on their cots at quiet time etc? Can they be kicked out for such things?
Oh some of the comments are making my blood boil..not sure if I can read anymore LOL. Daycare providers shouldn't be in it for the money, they shouldn't need a break at naptime, kids shouldn't be forced to rest, etc etc. I am not sure I have the heart to even comment
I don't know, to me its wierd. so a parent stumbled upon all these taped up children and she didnt call the police. And how come the administrator wasn't in this building. This story is just not making sense. I don't know.
I thought it was more likely that the child told the parent?? I don't know. Maybe other kids told parents, but they didn't believe them or understand. My 5 year old says some pretty strange things sometimes...it's sometimes hard to get to the truth.
Quote:
Originally Posted by momofnerds
Well, there are some strong opinions on this thread! I agree that compared to a degree learned from books, no matter what the field may be, hands on learning will teach you everything you need to learn. It's great for ECE's to know all the technical philosophies of childrearing but since no two children are alike it's a never ending learning experience when you work with children.
Who among us hasn't had a tiny fantasy of velcro on the walls so we can stick the children up there for a little while so we can sit down and breathe? But it's just something that crosses your mind when you are exhausted and having a crazy day. The people who actually do things like this should be punished, but there shouldn't be any question about what happened, there should be definite proof. Children can make up stories easily, especially when leading questions are asked by adults. 4 year old children do have great imaginations and are open to suggestions to tell stories.
I have a dumb question. Why are these 4 to 6 yrs old (the ones that were in the article) not in school. I know full day jk is almost everywhere, but a 6 yr old would be sk or grade 1????
my 4 yr olds don't nap here. But they do play quietly, they can watch tv, read a book or play with the toys. No running or jumping or screaming allowed. And I've never had a problem. When its nap time, they are so excited because they get to play with the big kid toys (anything that has little pieces) its the highlight of their day. They even beg me to put the little kids to bed.
I'm not going to hijack this thread or really comment on the article beyond agreeing that something's not right. I find it hard to believe that the story is as it sounds. But honestly, the fact is that we'll never know, it's got nothing to do with us and it's just one more thing to get my panties in a twist about. Between the CBC story earlier this year and all the day to day stresses, the most reaction a story like this about a licensed centre will get out of me is "See? Told ya....they're not so golden!"
Next....Sorry, but gotta address this - Luppernoodle.....ECE designation is a 'cracker jack diploma"? Seriously? What the hell???? I disagree with you COMPLETELY! I am a mother and completed my 2 yrs ECE studies while I was a mother. Nope, sorry luv....not cracker jack. I worked my ass off for 2 solid years. I have spent countless hours observing children behind one way mirror, did 4 daycare placements of varying forms, led and attended many, many workshops, studied behaviour management, child development and everything child related. I have toured playgrounds in the area and critiqued them for safety, redesigning them as assignments for school. I've developed resource files for parent resources as well as activity/theme/art resources with adaptations and modifications for a myriad of different needs/ages. This is of course not to mention the final exam which entailed touring a daycare centre which had been tampered with, which my team and I had to rectify. It took 2 full days without sleep and 3 people to complete our 45 page document including new rooms (Infant, Toddler, Junior & Senior Preschool, School Aged) specifying everything from height of electrical outlets to the cribs, to the layout, to the playground equipment, to the books on the shelves (and in storage for rotation)....everyth ing had to be covered, including having drafting pictures of the rooms. It was a frickin' nightmare and was the culmination of 2 years of hard work. Cracker Jack? Don't think so! And quite frankly, being a mother doesn't automatically make you qualified to do this job. I disagree completely that ONLY mothers returning to the workforce should do this job. Sorry again, but I've seem some home daycares touting "the mother thing" who really should never opened their doors for business as 'home daycares'. There are quite a few who claim the daycare name, but are nothing more than babysitters. There's more to being a daycare than slapping a few toys on shelf and opening yourself to the public....as many of the fine providers here can tell you. Mother does not equal qualified.
Full day kindergarten in Ontario is basically still just half day school with a teacher and and an ECE. Then for the afternoon they are in a daycare setting - usually another room in the same school and often with the ECE from the morning as well as other staff. The daycare programs are run by either the school board or the non-profit daycare group they have contracted with . As per the Day Nurseries Act, all children under 5 are expected to have a rest of up to one hour following lunch so in licensed care there is not the option to watch tv for an hour - that is a privilege reserved for children in private non-licensed home daycares.
Umm--I saw this story and agree that something is not right here...and I too am not going to comment anymore, as for ECE education being CRACKERJACK--um no. While I am a mother, and took it in part because I wanted to gain some insight as to different styles of handling children like cfred says it is much more than that. I am very offended that you would say that about something I take great pride in and worked very hard at Loopernoodle.
As for four year olds resting...
I always have my four y/o rest his body...Its not an option for him, and he knows this.
I live in Southern Ontario and I feel like the whole Daycare thing needs to be overhauled by the government. The cost of daycare is through the roof, whether its licenced or not. We all know that Quebec is cheap and it's working (as far as I'm concerned). I'm not saying we need to go that low in cost (Quebec) but a happy medium would be nice. I'd happily shell out 500-600 a month for daycare but 1000 and up seems insane!
Well it strikes me as very obvious that you are not a daycare provider and haven't the first clue how much it actually costs to run a daycare otherwise you wouldn't have made such a statement asQuote:
Originally Posted by joan tack
I charge for my full time children $860 per month regardless of age. I feed them unprocessed food either organic or abf and cater to gluten free at no additional cost to them. Even providers who do not provide organic food still shell out a large portion of their monthly fees on food. On top of that there's the whole set up of a daycare, in some cases including a major renovation, includes drywall, electrics, plumbing, plus all the finishes and that's before the cost of paint and decor. If people are lucky enough to have a finished space dedicated to daycare prior to starting up then there is still the cost of toys, art supplies, office supplies, furniture, etc which is not always a one off expense but an ongoing one when you consider wear and tear of toys when being heavily used by five children everyday and even more in some provinces plus providers own children. Add to that the fact that I bought an 8 seater minivan SOLELY for business use and the 5 car seats I bought for anywhere between 120 and 200 dollars a piece.Quote:
I'd happily shell out 500-600 a month for daycare but 1000 and up seems insane!
What next, oh yeah there is the cost of car insurance with enough liability to cover all passengers running thousands a year, as I do not have a rider policy which is inadequate coverage but actually have a commercial policy, and house insurance in the event of accidents on site. My back garden is being fenced in AS I TYPE, although it is not needed for my older kids but for my daycare is a necessary safety requirement in the best interest of my daycare children. That's a tremendous expense.
Then there's the cost of my accountant annually, website hosting as we'll as other advertising costs, printing services etc. My working week is 50 hours in terms of operating hours, but what about all the after hours I put in prepping and cooking home cooked meals, planning my preschoolers curriculum and getting materials ready, planning themes for the toddlers, interviewing during my precious family time and shopping for everything else inbetween on weekends.
There's nothing quite like someone who is not in the field making such statements as yours Joan. Sure go ahead, give me a pay cut because you have not bloody clue what you are talking about. It's expensive because care is not cheap to provide. If you want to pay a "CHEAP" rate then you will get "CHEAP" care. There's a big difference between cheap and inexpensive.
I would gladly welcome some kind of licensing as long is it was reasonable and us daycare providers had a say in the new legislation, but then I can guarantee you we will get slapped with a licensing fee which guess what, will be reflected in my fees.
If you in fact were in any kind of position to look for childcare my recommendation to you would be to look for the crazy lady down the road who has twenty kids running round her house all day. She's probably more in your price range, but beware you may never see your child again.
Pahhhh, it's great to hear people's opinions but don't try to have an opinion before you have all the facts on a subject you have clearly shown you know nothing about first hand.
Joan, are you a home daycare provider? There are threads on this forum explaining a lot about the overhaul the government is threatening and we are not happy about it. Maybe you could research a few of those threads and maybe you can explain why you are on our forum so that we know where and why you are coming from and can understand your point of view. Because right now I'm completely confused as to your posts and your reason for being here.
The government does provide subsidy to people in Ontario who qualify and they are able to use mostly daycare centres. I'm at the low end of the scale where rates are concerned but my clients pay over $600/month for excellent care. I don't know what else I can say.
I was wondering the same thing. Who is this lady. She was posting in the coupon thread, but posting garbage stuff.Quote:
Originally Posted by Momof4
I consider myself to be a high quality provider. I'm formally educated in the field, have been in business for many years with a page of glowing references as long as your arm. I'm currently expanding my experiences as I work with special needs and the various therapists who pass through to work with kids in my home. This is an invaluable learning opportunity for me. I cater to specialty diets including all forms of vegetarian (including vegan) and have researched those diets at length, formulating some fairly impressive and diverse menus. Our foods are natural, home made and any meats are purchased from local farms, are ethically raised and slaughtered and are antibiotic/hormone free. I have a light curriculum which focuses on bi-weekly themes and utilizes spontaneous, day to day learning opportunities in addition to planned activities. I've dedicated the entire main floor of my home to the daycare. My back yard has also been fully dedicated to the daycare with all my perennial flower beds being ripped out in favour of vegetable gardens used as an ongoing daycare learning experience. I currently have 5 baby chickens taking up residence in a large aquarium in my living room (part of another weeks long learning opportunity) to be followed up with a group trip to the farm to finish up this section of learning. Our learning leans strongly to respect for nature, animals, others and ourselves and there is a strong focus on personal empowerment and pride.
I command $45/day. You don't feel it's worth that? This is on the higher end in my neighbourhood and I'm full, now interviewing people 'just in case something comes up'. My clients are exceptionally happy and tell me as much on a very frequent basis. People don't even bat an eye at my rates when they see what I offer. I feel, as do my clients, that my fees are most reasonable for the quality of care their family can enjoy. It may sound like I'm tooting my horn, and I am! I've worked hard for most of my adult life honing my business to get it this far. It has cost me a fortune and an incredible amount of stress to finally get to this point. I'm extremely proud and protective of this business that I love so much. I'm finally seeing the culmination of years and years of effort, research, practice, accomplishments and setbacks. I've frickin' EARNED my bloody $45/day and the proof is in the clients (past and present).
People like you, Joan, wouldn't even make it in my front door for an interview. I'm not interested in clients like yourself. However, being polite to the death, if you did make it past my initial screening, you'd swiftly be added to my fake waiting list with a cordial smile :) No worries.....I'm sure one of the much cheaper home daycares can get the tv and Kraft Dinner warmed up for ya!
Cfred, your daycare and home and gardens all sound fantastic! I loved hearing all about your setup. Maybe we should have a thread where we all tell our best qualities! I pride myself on my nutritious, organically grown, non-prepackaged foods too and that's the bulk of my expenses for the daycare. I've stocked up on lots of craft supplies over the years and my felt board games, puppets and other props have all been purchased and stored away in the craft cupboard so I'm not spending much on anything like that any more.
My rent is low and we are always travelling to the park, library and other places that don't cost me any money except for my bus tickets, but they are a tax deduction. I'm also very proud of my themes and the teaching that I do, on our lesson/creating day once a week and all day every day as we play inside or outside. Even as we walk down the street I'm teaching the children or playing I Spy or other games with them. I admit that I've cut down to one craft per week which matches our theme because when I was new I was overdoing it on crafts. Those are my major selling points.
So all of that helps me keep my rates under control and pass the savings on to my clients. If I made a lot more money I would have to pay more taxes. But every one of our situations, finances and daycares are different.
I don't think that we should feel the need to explain or defend ourselves to anyone else besides ourselves and our clients. It's unfair when people jump to conclusions about our businesses when they don't know anything about our individual daycares.
I think that's a fantastic idea Momof4! I'm always open to hearing about other people's set ups, themes and strategies. We all have our own way of doing things but I often find myself reading things in here and thinking "Man, that was an awesome idea...why didn't I think of that?!" Let's do that next week! I've followed your posts for a long time and have been right impressed :)
Yes, you're like me...the food is my biggest expense. Huge actually! But, it's important, so we don't sweat it, right? You're so lucky to have a landlord who's cool with you doing the daycare. I did as well and rented for 18 years. Personally, I loved it as I never had to pay for big repairs. Now that I own, I'm discovering the unpleasantness of home maintenance....ugh.. ..never ending.
I know, I shouldn't feel the need to justify to people like Joan. I suppose I'm a little sensitive to some remarks, as I'm sure many of us are. This industry is so disrespected and misunderstood. It's frustrating to work as hard as we do without the assistance of a governing body that works for us rather than against us. When people like Joan, who are clearly living by the 'ignorance is bliss' motto, make stupid and provocative comments it gets very frustrating, especially after rounding out a very tiring 60 hour week with the whopping compensation at less than minimum wage (no benefits). Woot woot!! She also forgets to take into account the much lower living expenses in Quebec.....pffft!
That is a great idea. So parents can read that threat and see where our fees are coming from. They may realize that we are charging a very low fee for all the effort and expenses we have...I really do not understand how some can spend a lot in new cars, high mortgages, brand name clothing, but prefer to go with the cheapest low quality daycare to take care of what is supposed to be the most valuable thing in their lives.
I make $4/hour per child less expenses. There you go. Right now I have 4 children in care so I make $16/hour less expenses. I work really hard but I've never been happier. I should be miserable and angry and feel underpaid and undervalued. I'm definitely NOT one of the providers who sees rainbows and unicorns everywhere, I'm a total realist. I've learned how to cut back and organize and run my daycare like a well oiled machine so that I'm happy and content. There's the secret! Trust me, I speak from aged experience! :laugh: