http://m.thestar.com/#!/news/vaughan...27ebb46834fb7e
More on this horrible story.
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http://m.thestar.com/#!/news/vaughan...27ebb46834fb7e
More on this horrible story.
The link doesn't work.
they were dropped by a company, now the plot thickens. They knew what they were doing was illegal and did it times 10
Crazy. I can't, imagine as a daycare provider, being greedy enough to put lives in danger.
Sorry. I am on my phone, using a mobile version of the Toronto Star.Quote:
Originally Posted by jodaycare
These kinds of stories makes me want to stop what I'm doing.
The article says :
Under the Day Nurseries Act (DNA), it is an offence for an unlicenced child care provider to care for more than five unrelated children under the age of 10 without a licence — regardless of the number of adults present or on site, the ministry states
There's that word "unrelated" again.
Maybe the ministry should work on re wording this "rule" so there is no confusion. 5 plus the ones that popped out of you to a max number of "X" and that's it.
What really gets me is that this dayhome has been terminated from an agency for over numbers. But not fined? Not jailed? Not reported to the ministry?
Maybe if these things happened they would have learned their lesson.
I'm not saying the child died due to too many children in the home. Let's be honest, they haven't released how many adults were there, they don't know how the child died. And as far as we know this may have been a very loving home with good quality learning and plenty of adults. I agree... it doesn't matter. A rule is a rule. And the breaking of this rule has probably made a lot of future clients question using a home daycare.
We've talked about play dates on this forum. Can I have another provider in my backyard with their kids? Apparently the rule doesn't allow for that. Which most of us can agree is not right.
I really hope this one drifts out of the medias eyes quickly and we can all get back to doing what we do best.
On a side note... how do people get away with having birthday parties with multiple children? Can I throw a birthday party for my 5 year old with 10 kids in attendance? Is it just "paid" children that count in my numbers? What's the difference if my daughter has a friend over while I have daycare kids here?
Just something to think about.
So true a&b about the parties. How is a group over 5 that are in paid care at any less risk than 5 who are in unpaid care such as a two hour party in a backyard. My kids are Tweens and their parents certainly don't stay when either of them have a bunch of kids come over to party on the trampoline, play video games and eat pizza. Do you think I'm any less liable if one of them falls and hurts themselves. A parent could still sue me. It's ridiculous.
Don't hate on me now...this is why SOME kind of regulation would be good for home daycare providers. Not just to restrict us on numbers/ age ranges and to get money out of us for licensing annually, but a way to offer resources to providers and support providers. Inspectors could do random check ins and while this wont magically solve all problems in home daycare settings I do believe it will help. I also know first hand that it helps as in England it is heavily regulated and the system works in the interest of not only the child's and their families but also in the interest of the care provider who has access to training, resources and grants.
I Agree Completely!Quote:
Originally Posted by bright sparks
And how do we know that this child wouldn't have died in a licenced daycare centre. Or an unlicensed that has less then 5 kids and follows the rules to a T.
It really bothers me that the articles are using "unlicensed daycare" to describe the caregiver. It's really starting to sound like the child died BECAUSE the property had 27 kids in the house. When really... we have no idea the cause of this poor childs death. I hope it doesn't come out as neglect.
I'm really frustrated because I've had all of my parents question this at drop off this morning. Every one of them made a comment. It's so frustrating to defend my chosen profession because the media has written a story that makes my chosen profession look dangerous. There are people out there now questioning if they should leave their child in a home daycare. Perfectly good, quality, home daycares.
Ok, I'm done venting now. :)
ok, but if we need to be regulated the daycare centers need to regulated even more. today when I dropped off ds at tutoring, I watched 1 provider with 8 children all 3 yrs old coming back from the dollar store. There is a daycare next door to the tutoring place thats why I knew. So why is ok for a center to be 1:8 ratio but mine has to be 1:5 just doesn't make any sense now does it.
A&B, I was wondering if any of my clients would comment on this tragedy. Surprisingly, none did. That is not a good thing though. Who knows what's going on in their minds. Questioning their decision to use in home daycare. All my parents really appreciate my services, the care I offer and the program I run. I know this thru glowing recommendations (I have a waiting list now and am completely full). Letters of thanks, etc. But how could you not have thoughts run thru your head as a parent.
I'd prefer parents came right out and mentioned it. No one did.
It doesn't make sense. I can be a mom of 5 kids, yet still run an in home daycare with 5 children. That is 10 children I can legally have in my care. Yet, the daycare provider down the street might not have any children of her own and still only operate on a 5 children rule.Quote:
Originally Posted by momofnerds
There are other threads on this issue on the forum and what it comes down to is experience for the most part. I am a mom to 4 and what most of the parents that have come to me appreciate is that that comes with experience of knowing what is normal for different age groups and the ability to recognize when a child is about to walk and what proofing steps to take. I know that is not instinct. Also a person that juggles 4 kids after hours and weekends and is doing it anyways - meal and activity planning for multiples, scheduling for a variety of age groups can much easier add another one to the mix than a woman with no kids that suddenly decides they want to open a daycare and just take in five kids and hope for the best. Even taking courses such as ECE is not really the real world is much is based on books and while there is some practicum it doesn't include being alone with all the kids.
Also when a mom has her own children unless she had a couple sets of close in age twins/triplets her own kids are spread out age wise the more she has meaning the older ones are helpful and already know about not leaving stuff out because of babies so it is a help not a hindrance. This would not be the case if you took in an older child for care that did not have younger siblings.
Other mummy, I know what you mean. I wish my clients would bring it up too so I could respoind to it rather than have fears lodge themselves in their heads. I would like to think they have anough confidence and trust in me not to worry too much, but who knows really? I have my two nephews visiting right now and they are 8 and 12...the 8 year old has been hanging out with us a lot this week because I have one child away this week (and he may be away next week too). If my dcb comes back and I am at my full 5 again, I know I will not be able to have my younger nephew come on outings with us unless his older brother comes as his babysitter...but even then I am worried people will think I am over-ratio (his brother is huge and looks more like 18, so I am hoping that will help). I did have on dc dad ask about my nephew's age...maybe he was just curious, but maybe he was wondering if I have too many kids. I am VERY careful about these things although to be honest, having my nephew actually helps because he is very helpful with the little ones and he keeps my 5 year old busy. This is a very sad case of a little one dying...every parent's worst nightmare. Whatever the cause of death, people are now going to link it to unlicensed daycare...that is the line being used. I watched the daycare centre from my son's school arrive at the splashpad today...I couldn't even count the number of 2 and 3 year olds I saw there and it was chaos! Yes, there were the correct number of caregivers...but how do they manage to keep track of all those kids? It seems pretty chaotic to me. When I go to the park with my 5 dck's and my own 2, I am in tune with each one. I know who is likely to raun away, who is prone to being too much of a risk taker on the playstructure, who I have to worry about less as they will sit playing in the sand the whole time, etc. I can recognize instantly each child's voice or cry even if there are other kids at the park. This is because I have a bond with each one and I know them extremely well. They also know what to expect from me. The point about birthday parties is a good one. I am allowed to host a party of 20 kids alone and parents don't stay, I don't know the kids, it is usually mass chaos, but this is okay.
Ok, but this is the kind of daycare that gives us all a bad rap and it SHOULD have been shut down a long time ago. People get away with this type of thing all the time, too many kids, substandard food, substandard care, period. It's really sad. But the media is making us ALL sound like criminals even though there are so many of us out here doing a fantastic job and following all the rules. That's what makes me mad.
I agree. When I saw the original article, there were other articles linked on the side with scare tactic titles about unlicensed child care. UGH.
It seems to be the paper itself that is trying to bring up the unlicensed issue - remember their agenda from those other programs like marketplace. The authorities have only commented on the health and food issues and the possibility of underlying medical issues.
something needs to be done, but you know what, i blame the company she was with, the ministry of education and the food inspectors because they all washed their hands of this and are now blaming being unlicensed caused the problems. Why wasn't she charged before, why weren't follow ups done at least once a year, why can't she be redflagged on a national site. These easy steps would have prevented the death too.
The ONLY way society is gonna be able to stop warehousing is to charge the parents as well as the providers. Let's face it, licensing doesn't suddenly make warehousers follow the rules. It just doesn't. It is illegal to steal but we still have thieves. It is illegal to kill but we still have murders. Legalities and licensing don't suddenly make people honest.
I'm sorry, but it downright negligent to have 27 kids in one house. Yes, the provider was negligent regardless of the cause of death. But so were the parents! Do NOT tell me, for one second, that the bulk of the parents were not aware that that there were too many kids there. And, ignorance of the law is NO excuse. These are THEIR children, for God's sake, it is the parents' JOB to know the law.
In cases like this both the provider AND the parent should be charged with negligence. When you leave your CHILD in an unsafe, illegal position you are then an accomplice. In ANY other crime this would be so. Why should it be different for warehouse daycare? Just because a child dies everyone says, "Oh, the parents have already suffered so much". But THEY, the parents, LEFT that child in that unsafe, negligent situation. Both the provider AND the parents share the blame and responsibility for this death.
I am sure the parents will never forgive themselves for putting their kid in this position. I agree, 27 children under one roof is ridiculous. I don't know what the solution is, though. As I've been trying to say in a few threads, it seems, daycare is expensive, and funding and licensing are both hard to come by.
More info about this:
http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2013...continues.html
Again here we go blaming unlic. care in general...Really?
I have to say....as much as no one wants to hear this....there needs to be a system in place. A system of governance that oversees us all and maintains a minimum standard of performance, training and daycare maintenance. I hate to see things change as much as anyone, but this clearly isn't working in anyone's favour. It's unfortunate, too, that the powers that be in this situation (Min of Ed) were below standard performance levels as well in failing to investigate one complaint and failing to follow up on actions with regards to another complaint.
I would like to strive to have licensing for all of us, but not as it stands now. I'd be thrilled to see the DNA revamped to include feasible allowances and standards for the home daycare industry. I think reasonable licensing standards would be something we'd all like to see in place....correct? I would also like to see a registry system which all home daycares must be listed on, indicating their training, experience/expertise, etc. Regular drop in inspections would be terrific (if not nerve wracking). And for those centres who have complaints lodged against them which are founded and proven, they need to be black listed and never allowed to offer services to families again.
As much as Martha Friendly irritates me, she's right. We do work in a grey area. No one is watching us. For most of us it's not a problem. However, there are too many daycares out there who should never have opened their doors to the public. The fact is that ANYONE can do this job. Like it or not, and I'm sure some of you are offended, but it's a simple fact. Anyone with a roof over their head and some incentive can get some toys, place an ad and run a daycare. Of course this will be with varying levels of skill and professionalism, but still....anyone can do it if they wish to. That's just not right. I don't want to lose my freedoms of self employment or running my business with my own vision any more than the rest of you. This may not be popular, but I'm really sick of our industry being pounded by the press. I'm tired of being lumped in with idiots like the ones we see in the news. I'm sick of being considered a babysitter by the general public. I'm educated in my field with enough experience to gain notable recognition in any other profession. I know not everyone in here is ECE and that's fine...to each his/her own. But I am and I worked my arse off for it. This was not ever a secondary career choice for me....childcare is it and always has been. I would like that to actually mean something in this business! I want licensing standards changed and some sort of governance to lend some credibility to the career I've chosen and value much more than the general public does.
Just my feelings on the subject....
cfred, I have to say that I agree with you. I think that every independent home daycare should be held accountable by someone. I would be HAPPY to apply for a license. I would be happy to comply with impromptu inspections. I know I would pass. I already live up to health and safety standards. I think most if not all of us do here on this board.
I am not talking about signing on with an agency here. We could still decide who we accept into our home, our programming, our routines, etc, but be subject to health and welfare inspections for the safety of all the children in our province. This is not so much about those of us who are doing it right, but "catching" those who aren't. These accountabilities should not reflect on our salary, though. We work hard for little money, and we should be able to keep what we earn without an agency shaving a percentage off the top.
cfred. I don't agree. I know you have the welfare at children at heart with that post and opinion. I really do. I think we ALL, here on this forum, have the welfare of children at heart. I think we are ALL appalled that this happened.
However, I still think that even if there was licensing there would STILL be illegal daycares that just go about business being unlicensed. Parents would STILL knowingly send their kids there too. It's happening NOW - a piece of paper and some additional law won't change that matter.
To use a different analogy. Drugs are illegal. But we STILL have grow-ops in every single city in Canada. People who don't follow the law do that knowingly. They don't CARE and laws can not make people care.
Judy, that's a good point re: there still being unlicensed daycares, but they would be illegal. I understand your point regarding drugs, etc, but I think parents would be able to ask that magical question, "are you licensed?" and it might deter people from using the illegal ones more. Or something. I am not articulating eloquently what I am thinking. But, I think most of my irritation and reasoning is that I want to be able to have the option (at least) to be licensed. I want parents to know that I am following the rules and I have nothing to hide. Every news article seems to equate unlicensed with illegal, and I'd like to set that straight by making the public understand that we are not operating subversively, but are in fact, true legitimate nurturing thriving daycares.
Judy, that's fair enough. And true, there will still be illegal daycares, regardless of the laws that be. However, and this is my crux of my point here - licensing will lend credibility to an industry that to many is incredible. Yes, I have the interests of the children at heart, but also my own interests and those of all others in this business who are acting responsibly, legally and professionally. I'm sorry, but it pisses me off that anyone with a few toys can open their doors for business. And that is EXACTLY the way it is right now. Just because I have a tool kit and a hoist doesn't mean I'm qualified to fix your brakes. This is the same thing. There needs to be oversight of this business and some serious accountability on our side as well as government.
I'm all for amendments to the DNA and required licensing.
I wholeheartedly agree with cfred. Although I understand what judy is saying- laws certainly don't make people good, but I think it would actually be in our best interests to have some sort of system ( although NOT through an agency). Perhaps it would give us a bit more credibility and put parents minds at ease...
i feel that they need to:
~ set up more centers like CCPRN through out the province.
~They should set up a CLEAR set of rules and regulations.
~ redo the rules and regulations they have now
~ Make it easier for people to find the rules and regulation
~ send out a information package with all the rules and regulations to parents (along with their universal child care tax or after the child has been registered)
~ have subsidy follow the child (no agency needed)
As long as there are children who need care, there will be illegal daycare's.
I tend to agree with Judy on this. While the idea of being licensed and being able to lend credibility to my business etc, is nice and I know I would pass inspections,etc, I am not the kind of daycare that needs to be closed down. The ones who are currently running crappy daycares are not going to become licenses and therefore, they are not going to be inspected. And, quite frankly, parents who send their kids to these daycare ALREADY know that they are over-ration, illegal daycares. Licensing would not have saved this poor toddler who died. The daycare had 27 kids. They were already running illegally...so they would just continue to run illegallly if we were required to have licenses. I do think there needs to be more parent education about childcare laws as well as what quality childcare should look like. I think there also need to be MORE incentives for daycares to open so that more spaces are available and parents have more choice of where to put their kids.
I agree with you sunnydays. Another article came out today using quotes from some of the clients. They both said the children were well taken care of. They were clean, fed and happy. None of them are coming out saying " I had no idea there were that many children there "
Unfortunately, as good as charging the parents and the caregiver sounds. It wouldn't work in my opinion. A parent would never rat on a daycare that is over limit because they'd be fined as well. And, in this case at least, no one would get fined until someone got hurt and authorities found out.
I really wish the media would get off of the "unlicensed daycare' wagon and focus on the reason for the childs death and how it could be prevented.
At least they could say "over-ratio" or "illegal" daycare instead of "unlicensed"...m akes "unlicensed" sound like it is illegal and shady :(
another update http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toront...ls-review.html
Exactly. My background is in Child Welfare as a front line social worker. I saw licensed and approved foster homes who abused children. I don't think licensing is a catch all to prevent any kind of abuse, neglect, etc; sure un-announced home visits can catch caregivers who may be breaking the rules, but not always. There were soooo many times I did unannounced home visits only to have no one answer the door (I was almost always positive they were home), as they knew it was someone checking up on them. Then I was just out of luck, and had to try another day. And fines? Can't see that be useful, does it stop speeders? I have parents in my dayhome now who brought their kids to me and told me they were using other private dayhomes previously who had 10+kids. They knew it was too many, but needed the care and so sent their kids there anyway. I still have to register and be licensed by the Alberta College of Social Worker to work at my other contract job, it is just a PIA more than anything - costs me $350 a year and I have to do so many credit hours of learning each year and submit a portfolio. Does that make me better at my job? Do they provide me with any kind of extra support/benefit? Not in my opinion.Quote:
Originally Posted by apples and bananas
The onus is on parents to make the right choices for their families, and on the caregivers to provide quality care. Licensing won't change either.
I find this line absolutely ridiculous and the reason they are on a witch hunt:
But it's the government's job to make sure that people have safe places for their kids while they're at work, Taylor said.
It is the job of each set of parents to find the daycare provider and dayhome that appeals to them, to their vision for their child, to find a provider who offers exactly what sounds best to them. It is not the government's job!
I know there are many substandard, illegal daycares out there - like the ones with 27 kids in care. But we are not ILLEGAL, we're FANTASTIC and LEGAL because we are all within our limits, providing excellent care, learning and activity programs and we don't have to defend ourselves to anyone.
Well, in a way I understand what Taylor is saying. Complaints were made and not followed up on. I know another provider who reported a fellow provider in the area who she believes is over-ratio...they did not investigate because they figured she was just trying to get rid of competition. But, I also agree that parents need to take responsibility for their child's well-being. I also had a child in my daycare last year who came from an over-ratio daycare...all the parents knew, but continued to send their kids there. Even the mom who switched over to my daycare did not want to report the provider. She had assistants...but it sounded chaotic.
Sounds to me like a politician taking a jab at the opposition more than anything else.
ok, what I don't understand is, why they go after daycares all the time, but 2 weeks ago when a grandmother left her own grandson in a car to die no charges were laid against her. What makes that any different, she was watching 1 child and a child a died and this lady was watching 27 and a child died in both cases a child died and both were being watched.
momofnerds ~ the grandmother HAS been charged. Here is the story. http://toronto.ctvnews.ca/video?clip...88381481237582