Question about older children

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04-06-2014 06:32 PM
Artsand crafts

Question about older children

A mom just called me for before and after school for her 11yo girl. At the beginning I was not sure about it and I told her that I only have kids under 3yo currently and that the girl would be bored since all the activities are focused on younger children here. She almost begged me to consider her and she also told me the girl is very well behaved and know how to entertain herself and that she would be doing her stuff, like homework in the afternoon. We set a meeting on Monday so I can meet the girl outside daycare hours and if everything looks ok I would like to set another meeting during daycare hours and see how is she with the others

I still have some doubts about it:
1. I have never have a kid that old under my care, for the ones who have could you let me know some pros and cons

2. I already have enrolled 5 kids, so I am at full capacity (in Ontario). However, I think I saw somewhere that kids over 10 years old don't count in the numbers. I could not find an official statement from a government website about it. Do any of you have any official source stating this that you can share?

If everything looks ok with the girl and it's still legal to have her on top of the other 5 it would be great since it would be nice to have older children enrolled in case of Bill 143 becomes a law with its current age restrictions.
04-06-2014 06:53 PM
ttremble88

1. I have a number of before and after school children. Ages range from 6-9 years old. They are a number of pros and cons that come to mind when taking older children:

Pro:
-the are self efficient and do not diaper changes, potty training ect
-they are usually able to self entertain
-it is SOMETIMES refreshing to hold a more adult conversation
-little ones generally really enjoy having the older kids

Con:
-they have been raised a certain way, and not necessarily under our rules
-there is more back talk and attitude
-I find my older kids are the ones to rial up my younger ones
-sometimes they get annoyed/dont understand the younger ones behavior

I have found the biggest con with b/a was getting the children to school. I needed to cut nap time short in order to get the babies up, dressed and ready to go, which was a huge pain. I ended up hiring a walker in order to keep the little ones on a more solid schedule.

As for the age, I am pretty sure that they do not count if they are under 12, but I may be wrong. I am lucky enough to have a few little ones arrive after my b/a kids leave and get pickup up before school is out. It works out perfectly.
04-06-2014 10:12 PM
CrazyEight

I don't have any b/a children that old, but I do have 1 now and another starting next week that are 5 and 4, respectively. I take them because I have a 5 and 4 year old of my own, so I'm already doing the school run. I agree, it is difficult coordinating naps and getting everyone out the door on time, but I have to do it anyways with my own 2 so it doesn't really make a difference. One thing to consider, though - snacks. Older kids eat a lot! I include an afterschool snack for b/a school kids, and it's been tricky feeding them and still making any money! I've now instituted a new rule - they eat their snack, which is appropriately sized, and if they're still hungry then they can eat something from their lunch, if they haven't finished it, but it can't be a sugary treat, since it will make the other kids jealous. It's difficult, I don't want to deny kids food when they're hungry, but my 4-year-old son comes home from school and would eat the whole fridge if I let him! On the other hand, I don't want parents to think I'm skimping out on snack if they go home "still hungry." So I'm always very clear on what they had for snack, to let the parent know that they did indeed get enough.

As for numbers, I believe they don't count if they're over 10...but don't quote me on that!
04-06-2014 10:27 PM
Artsand crafts

I have also thought about the attitude, but mom says she is well behaved, we'll see during the 2 interviews where she will come and the probation period, too.

I have someone who could pick her up and drop her up from the bus stop, if the stop site is close to my house. Mom still needs to confirm the stop it's actually close. Otherwise, I will not enroll her.

Food is a good point, I guess they will be eating a lot. My dck (all under 3) eat a lot. Since mom will be paying for a full time spot I think the cost will be covered. I may even offer her some of what we had during lunch time if she's still hungry.

I hope everything works out, since I have a 3 yo of my own and I am pregnant. With bill 143 if approved as is I would only have 3 spots left, with this girl or older kids like her I could make it work.

I just spoke with a mom this afternoon in the park whose son goes to Kindergarten next year and she has to pay for full day kindergarten (after hours care at school) almost what people pay for a full time spot at a daycare. I thought full day kindergarten was free during after hours care.
04-06-2014 10:39 PM
CrazyEight

Oh man, the extended hours care offered through the school is INSANELY expensive! Plus, when I enquired about it, I was told that at our school, which is a decent size, they only had FIVE kindergarten spots, for JK and SK. Priority goes to returning kids, so you also don't find out until right before school starts if you get a spot or not, since they have to wait to see if kids that were in JK in the program last year are going to come back. I now have my own kids in JK and SK and they both brought home a "survey" a few weeks ago, asking if there was any interest in the program for next year. The cost has gone down a bit - last year when my daughter brought home the survey, it was a total of $32/day for b/a school, and $40/day for PA days. Now I believe it is $25/day for b/a school and still $40/day for PA days. Also, the hours on PA days are shorter, instead of being 7am-6pm on either side of the school day, PA day care is 8am-5pm, which would potentially screw parents who need those regular hours. I was just blown away - out of the whole school, 3 full kindergarten classes, they only have five kindergarten spots. It was ridiculous.

I had to terminate a JK boy the beginning of this year for extreme aggression issues, and the parents somehow got him a spot in the program after a few weeks, so I guess there wasn't a huge waiting list, but apparently all they do is run around in the gym the whole time. Which works very well for this boy, who's energy level is off the charts, and I'm sure every program is different, but I don't really like the sound of it. Frankly, though, I could never afford it, especially for 2 kids. For b/a school, I charge $17/day, just raised it from $15/day. The way I look at it, that's still major savings for parents looking at the school program, and as I'm right next door to the school and can pick up on snow days and PA days, it works out well.
04-07-2014 08:49 AM
momofnerds

ok so I have that age group but only because they have a sibling here. But as the sibling leaves so do the kids. Now, I have to ask, why can't the child stay home by herself.

also if they are over 10 they don't count in numbers.

also I find they are so bored here and they are more work than the little kids.
04-07-2014 09:28 AM
mickyc

For myself it wouldn't be worth it. I used to have before/after school boys and I would occasionally take them on their days off school/summer etc. I was so glad when they left. Older kids play differently. They are hard on the toys, play rough, require more supervision than the little ones, get bored quickly. I didn't charge much but I also didn't feed them either. They ate their snack on the bus ride here. I would never do it again. Once a child reaches grade 1 they are too old for my daycare.
04-07-2014 12:21 PM
Artsand crafts

Quote:

Originally Posted by CrazyEight

Oh man, the extended hours care offered through the school is INSANELY expensive! Plus, when I enquired about it, I was told that at our school, which is a decent size, they only had FIVE kindergarten spots, for JK and SK. Priority goes to returning kids, so you also don't find out until right before school starts if you get a spot or not, since they have to wait to see if kids that were in JK in the program last year are going to come back. I now have my own kids in JK and SK and they both brought home a "survey" a few weeks ago, asking if there was any interest in the program for next year. The cost has gone down a bit - last year when my daughter brought home the survey, it was a total of $32/day for b/a school, and $40/day for PA days. Now I believe it is $25/day for b/a school and still $40/day for PA days. Also, the hours on PA days are shorter, instead of being 7am-6pm on either side of the school day, PA day care is 8am-5pm, which would potentially screw parents who need those regular hours. I was just blown away - out of the whole school, 3 full kindergarten classes, they only have five kindergarten spots. It was ridiculous.

I had to terminate a JK boy the beginning of this year for extreme aggression issues, and the parents somehow got him a spot in the program after a few weeks, so I guess there wasn't a huge waiting list, but apparently all they do is run around in the gym the whole time. Which works very well for this boy, who's energy level is off the charts, and I'm sure every program is different, but I don't really like the sound of it. Frankly, though, I could never afford it, especially for 2 kids. For b/a school, I charge $17/day, just raised it from $15/day. The way I look at it, that's still major savings for parents looking at the school program, and as I'm right next door to the school and can pick up on snow days and PA days, it works out well.

Then I don't see the benefit of all day kindergarten. It's just an expensive daycare and if all they do is running around I think they do not need too many people watching the kids. It does not sound like a big competition for us. In here this mom said that the closest school that it's also at walking distance charges $40 per day (for about 3 hours). She will have to enroll her son further away from us since the other school charges about $25/day. Still I guess she will have to pay for the school bus service, or is this one free?
04-07-2014 12:27 PM
momofnerds

also alot of school programs for before and after don't take 11 yr olds. I know ours doesn't because they can stay home by themselves. Also its only 7 dollars an hour if you need it. What time would this child be getting to daycare and staying. I also know that ours closes at 530pm and opens at 7pm.
04-07-2014 12:33 PM
Artsand crafts

I have never taken before and after school kids, since I did not like the hassle of picking up and dropping of from the bus stop. That's why I was telling the mom she was too old for my program and that she would be bored since all activities are for babies. She told me she is good at self entertaining and very well behaved. I also asked her whether she could walk to my house from the bus stop. She prefers someone walk to her. She is not concern about the traffic. She said she is more concern about child abduction or thinks like that.

My assistant knows them. They live in the same building. She also confirmed that the girl seems nice and well behaved. We'll see this afternoon. Our appointment is at 6pm
04-07-2014 12:40 PM
Artsand crafts

Quote:

Originally Posted by momofnerds

also alot of school programs for before and after don't take 11 yr olds. I know ours doesn't because they can stay home by themselves. Also its only 7 dollars an hour if you need it. What time would this child be getting to daycare and staying. I also know that ours closes at 530pm and opens at 7pm.

I told mom I open from 8 to 5pm and she is ok with that. She still needs to confirm drop off and pick up time from the bus stop.

Another reason I do not take before and after school is because parents usually expect a reduced rate when for me is a child using a spot that that could be paid full time, but in this case mom is willing to pay for a full time spot and the girl will not be using any of my 5 spots. In another forum someone was very kind to send me a link from a government webpage stating that kids over 10yo don't count in numbers.

I am also pregnant and I am afraid someone leaving before my delivery date just for that reason (even I'm only closing for 2 weeks). Also a dc mom told me she's trying to get pregnant so in a few months I guess will have an spot available when she goes on mat leave.
04-07-2014 12:46 PM
mickyc

If you need the money and she seems like a good kid (and they will pay for a full-time spot for just before/after school!) then by all means take her. For myself I didn't do any bus runs and the bus stopped at my house to drop off the kids. I certainly would have not done any bus runs!
04-07-2014 12:49 PM
CrazyEight

In response to choosing a different school for cheaper after-school care...(I can't seem to reply with a quote right now)

Here the buses are free (paid for in your taxes) but you cannot decide which school your child goes to. You can choose public or public catholic, and you get bus service to the closest one of each. You also qualify for bus service to the nearest French immersion program once it starts in grade 4 if you choose. I've had a couple potential clients who wanted to enroll in my daycare and send their child to the school next door, and then they realized that they don't live in our catchment area and can't choose which school. Even if a school further away has a cheaper after school program, you're not allowed to just pick and choose. You CAN ask to be put on a waiting list, but you have to wait until school starts and all the kids that do live in that area are enrolled, and then if there is space it is up to the principal's discretion how many extra kids they will accept.

All day kindergarten has been great for my kids, I'm just talking about the after-school program. Apparently it is staffed by ECEs, which seems to be a draw for some parents, and I think just the convenience of having it at the school is seen as a plus for some.
04-07-2014 12:50 PM
AmandaKDT

Quote:

Originally Posted by Artsand crafts

A mom just called me for before and after school for her 11yo girl. At the beginning I was not sure about it and I told her that I only have kids under 3yo currently and that the girl would be bored since all the activities are focused on younger children here. She almost begged me to consider her and she also told me the girl is very well behaved and know how to entertain herself and that she would be doing her stuff, like homework in the afternoon. We set a meeting on Monday so I can meet the girl outside daycare hours and if everything looks ok I would like to set another meeting during daycare hours and see how is she with the others

I still have some doubts about it:
1. I have never have a kid that old under my care, for the ones who have could you let me know some pros and cons

2. I already have enrolled 5 kids, so I am at full capacity (in Ontario). However, I think I saw somewhere that kids over 10 years old don't count in the numbers. I could not find an official statement from a government website about it. Do any of you have any official source stating this that you can share?

If everything looks ok with the girl and it's still legal to have her on top of the other 5 it would be great since it would be nice to have older children enrolled in case of Bill 143 becomes a law with its current age restrictions.

If it is only before and after school then there probably wouldn't be much time for her to get bored. I had my 11 year old niece come for a few full days last summer and she had a fine time playing with the little ones. If she is well behaved then it will probably be fine. Just ask her the kinds of things she likes to do and make sure you have some stuff around if she looks bored - most likely some paper and markers will keep her busy.

Why can't she walk to and from the bus herself? She is more than old enough. You could take her a few times there and back to make sure she knows the way and is clear on safety rules.

I might also make it so that the parent provides the snacks and then it is not your responsibility to worry about how much she eats. I have an 8 year old that always eats her snacks at school, and almost never has anything to eat when she gets here after school. Her mom knows this and is fine with me only giving her a glass of water if she says she is hungry - I don't provide any snacks. The mom is trying to teach her responsibility and to spread her food throughout the day, she is sent with more than enough food for the day.

I don't know if I have had good kids so far, but I haven't really had any issues with older kids. Maybe it was because I used to be a teacher and know how to nip any attitude problems in the bud, but I haven't really had any problems with the age range of 1.5 to 8 years old that I have right now.
04-07-2014 01:08 PM
Artsand crafts

Quote:

Originally Posted by AmandaKDT

I don't know if I have had good kids so far, but I haven't really had any issues with older kids. Maybe it was because I used to be a teacher and know how to nip any attitude problems in the bud, but I haven't really had any problems with the age range of 1.5 to 8 years old that I have right now.

I think I have everything under control for under 5 yo that are the ages I have experience with. No major behavioral issues. Any tips for older kids' attitude.
04-07-2014 01:18 PM
sunnydays

If you have found someone who is willing to pay full fee for a before and after child who is beyond the age who counts in your numbers and you even have someone to do the school bus runs...I would say you have hit the jackpot!! As long as the girl is well-behaved, I would jump on it! And since she is paying a full spot, but not there most of the day, I would not ask her to provide snacks. You can feed her and still make a profit. Maybe you can get her involved in helping with the little ones, reading to them, putting on puppet shows for them, etc if she seems to like little kids. It all depends on her personality, but with the right kid, she could actually be a help and someone to talk to as well. I would go for it!
04-07-2014 01:31 PM
bright sparks

Quote:

Originally Posted by CrazyEight

Oh man, the extended hours care offered through the school is INSANELY expensive! Plus, when I enquired about it, I was told that at our school, which is a decent size, they only had FIVE kindergarten spots, for JK and SK. Priority goes to returning kids, so you also don't find out until right before school starts if you get a spot or not, since they have to wait to see if kids that were in JK in the program last year are going to come back. I now have my own kids in JK and SK and they both brought home a "survey" a few weeks ago, asking if there was any interest in the program for next year. The cost has gone down a bit - last year when my daughter brought home the survey, it was a total of $32/day for b/a school, and $40/day for PA days. Now I believe it is $25/day for b/a school and still $40/day for PA days. Also, the hours on PA days are shorter, instead of being 7am-6pm on either side of the school day, PA day care is 8am-5pm, which would potentially screw parents who need those regular hours. I was just blown away - out of the whole school, 3 full kindergarten classes, they only have five kindergarten spots. It was ridiculous.

I had to terminate a JK boy the beginning of this year for extreme aggression issues, and the parents somehow got him a spot in the program after a few weeks, so I guess there wasn't a huge waiting list, but apparently all they do is run around in the gym the whole time. Which works very well for this boy, who's energy level is off the charts, and I'm sure every program is different, but I don't really like the sound of it. Frankly, though, I could never afford it, especially for 2 kids. For b/a school, I charge $17/day, just raised it from $15/day. The way I look at it, that's still major savings for parents looking at the school program, and as I'm right next door to the school and can pick up on snow days and PA days, it works out well.

This dollar amount is shocking and I don't understand it. My kids were in before and after school care onsite run by the YMCA about 5 years ago and it cost $11 a day per child for both before and after. Their employees all had to have an ECE diploma too. Since this was a while ago, and wasn't kindergarten, I just checked in with one of my daycare families who have a daughter in JK and who attends before and after school program every day onsite that is run by ECE's. She pays just over $18 per day so why is it that different schools can charge whatever they want??? In my area onsite b/a childcare is always the cheapest option. home daycares charge $20-$25 a day and obviously have the expense of transporting the kids too, but from a parents perspective, they don't have to worry about someone else driving their child around and the child stays on school premises that they are familiar with so IMO that is the better option.

For an 11 year old they could attend a "Home Alone" course and save mom a bunch of money in b/a school care fees, but it is an individual decision a parent makes as to whether they want to leave their child alone at that age or if the child is in fact mature enough to be left at home safely. It's also one thing a child letting themselves in after school, but very different to have to rely on them to get themselves up and ready and out the door on time for school.
04-07-2014 01:42 PM
bright sparks

Quote:

Originally Posted by sunnydays

If you have found someone who is willing to pay full fee for a before and after child who is beyond the age who counts in your numbers and you even have someone to do the school bus runs...I would say you have hit the jackpot!! As long as the girl is well-behaved, I would jump on it! And since she is paying a full spot, but not there most of the day, I would not ask her to provide snacks. You can feed her and still make a profit. Maybe you can get her involved in helping with the little ones, reading to them, putting on puppet shows for them, etc if she seems to like little kids. It all depends on her personality, but with the right kid, she could actually be a help and someone to talk to as well. I would go for it!

Maybe it would serve you well to spend a little bit of initial time coming up with an independent program for her, and include her in the planning of it too. If she has a bad attitude one day it will likely be out of boredom so doing this initial planning to prevent this and have options readily available for when she is board, it may prevent problems arising. I would also make it clear to her from the start what your role is and your expectations are for each other. I know this may be something some providers would do in front of the parents but depending on the child, I may be inclined to do this 1 on 1 with the older child. Here are some ideas...

Have a space where she can have access to a computer to do homework and research homework related things...that is if you are comfortable with this. It would include setting ground rules for use and consequences if rules are not followed. If not then at least a space for her to sit and do homework.

Upon chatting with her and finding out her interests, have a basket of "boredom busters" for her to dig into if she needs some alone time, or finds it a bit boring to be playing with the little ones. Include crafts materials, printable worksheets in a duotang, or even some kind of puzzle books etc etc. Making these things complex would mean she can work on them ongoing over the course of days or weeks, emphasizing independence though so she will need little or no support from you.

Give her some responsibilities if she is a "mother hen" kind of girl. She can prep snacks or plan an activity to do one day a week and lead the group in it. It's not about slave labour lol, but these are important skills for her to develop which will in turn result in helping you.

I think the main times you will encounter bad attitude is if she hates being at your place so while you don't necessarily want to have to entertain her, you need to give her some opportunities to do things that are age appropriate to her and engaging and fun things that she will want to do and make being at your place a pleasant and positive experience.
04-07-2014 01:59 PM
AmandaKDT

Quote:

Originally Posted by Artsand crafts

I think I have everything under control for under 5 yo that are the ages I have experience with. No major behavioral issues. Any tips for older kids' attitude.

I guess I just don't let them get away with anything and always expect good manners towards myself and the other kids. It really isn't much different than how you would deal with a 5 year old, except that you can set your expectations even higher. I will remind them to say please and thank you if they don't say it. If I notice that something hasn't been done (like clearing their plates away from the table), then I call them back to come clean it up. It doesn't take long for them to get into the routine and know your rules. I rarely raise my voice, but I am firm and consistent with my expectations and will deal out consequences if needed.

I also do the "either, or" if I get attitude. Either you clean up after yourself, or next time you won't get to participate at all. Either you stop throwing snow balls or you'll be shoveling my sidewalk for the rest of the week.

I worked with a teacher once who said her strategy was to be a *itch (rhymes with witch) the first month or two of school (in terms of being super strict with her rules and expectations - not just a meany for no reason), then spend the rest of the school year being a fun teacher because she had the set the ground work and the kids knew how to behave.

But if it is true that this girl is well behaved then you will likely have no problem. Just don't be afraid to call her on her behaviour if you don't like what she is doing. That is the nice thing about working with older kids, you can have an actual conversation with them.