3 under 3 AND 2 under 2!

Just to give Ontario providers some warning, the committee hearings on Bill 10 are happening yesterday and today. Yesterday, many different agency reps began pushing hard for unlicensed providers to abide by a "3 under 3" rule, as well as "2 under 2." This would put many more providers out of business - JK starts at age 4!!

If you haven't already sent in a submission to the Committee, you have until this evening (Nov. 18) at 8:30pm to send in a letter, outlining how this Bill will affect you, your clients, and your families.

PLEASE take 5 minutes and send in a submission.
You can email them to the committee clerk at: vquioc@ola.org

Done and done

Question totally out of curiosity, but why don't unlicensed providers get licensed then? In Manitoba the law is already no more than 2 under age 2 ( and a max of 4 kids total) for unlicensed providers. I believe it is used as incentive to get people to become licensed.

Because we can't unless we are with an agency taking a big chunk of our income. There is also no grants or gov. assistance.

The Ontario gov't doesn't have licensing here. We have 2 options - go private ("unlicensed") or work for an agency, who set our rates and take upwards of 20% of our wages - that are already under average, because they set them! That is the problem - neither option (agency or private) will be a financially feasible business after Bill 10.

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Originally Posted by torontokids

Because we can't unless we are with an agency taking a big chunk of our income. There is also no grants or gov. assistance.

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Can you explain the agencies, why is it that they exist? Are agencies privately run or government run? What would make someone want to join an agency.

Manitoba has a much friendlier system than Ontario. Really, don't you think we WOULD get licensed if it was prudent to do so? We do have some non-profit agencies, but they aren't available everywhere. For instance, in my city, I have WeeWatch and Hopscotch - both for profit, both taking a minimum of 25% of my fees in admin costs. In addition, their oversight and client sourcing are, so far as I've seen, dismal at best. 25% - 30% of our incomes are a dear price to pay for a little shoddy oversight, don't you think? We also have Full Day Kindergarten to contend with, which has really changed the face of childcare in Ontario. Kids are gone now as young as 3.5 yrs. Our window with children is very small, which is why we take issue with 2 under 2. It's very, very difficult to maintain numbers with that ratio in place. 1 under 1 or 2 under 18 months, sure! But 2 under 2 doesn't work.

They are privately run and for profit. No one wants to join an agency. In my experience it is more newer providers, new immigrants or people with no experience that join an agency.

There are non profit here too Torontokids...they just aren't everywhere. I went to a round table discussion with other providers and the coordinator and I were discussing it.

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Originally Posted by cfred

Manitoba has a much friendlier system than Ontario. Really, don't you think we WOULD get licensed if it was prudent to do so?

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That was the reason I was asking, cuz I don't know the situation behind it. Was trying to fully understand since the providers from Ontario are making such a big deal about it.

Are there plans in that Bill 10 about how agencies are run? Are there any changes being made about that area?

Nope! Agencies are not the same across the province. Some are for-profit, some are not, some are, by all accounts, great and supportive, some cut corners to line their own pockets whenever possible. They set different rates for providers and pay providers different amounts. For example, there are 2 agencies in my city - one charges clients $38/day and pays providers a max of $30 (for infants, less for toddlers, etc) and the other charges clients $40/day and only pays providers $26 or $24/day, depending on the age of the child.

*sigh* I am getting so fed up and tired of this Bill 10. It is Idiotic at best :P I consider myself lucky because I don't technically need to work, but I do it because I love it, and the write offs are a bonus! But seeing how this is affecting my friends in the same line of work who rely on the income, it's making me sick! I know we do this because we love the job and I just don't know why the <insert cussing> government has to mess around with it. They are so bloody clueless on how many lives this is going to impact. ok, rant done ;)

I hope you're watching the committee online! Our ladies are really doing great! Have even reduced the Libs to immature, manipulative strategies a couple times. It was impressive...they handled the Libs like champs :yes:

That should make you feel better.

Oh...and in case you hadn't heard, the Ombudsman is supporting us now....yeaahhhhh

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Originally Posted by AmandaKDT

Can you explain the agencies, why is it that they exist? Are agencies privately run or government run? What would make someone want to join an agency.

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If it's like NS and other provinces, the agencies exist to ensure the in-home providers are following the legislation.

There are lots of regs for registered providers - record keeping of attendance, lateness, menu planning which are published to clients, immunization records, health related records, ensuring yards are fenced, separate sleep areas for under two's and over two's, suitable toys for all age ranges, educational activities, certain amount of natural light for the square footage, are just a few - and the two under two, three under three rule.

The agencies here provide a toy library, help with tutoring for record keeping, act as mediators if having issues with a client, assistance in menu plannning, support if having issues with a child etc.

They issue the registered status to their day home and likewise, if the regs aren't being followed, they can withdraw it too.

There are no benefits in terms of the numbers of children a registered carer can have vs an unregistered but a registered carer are the only ones who can accept subsidized clients.

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Originally Posted by Rachael

If it's like NS and other provinces, the agencies exist to ensure the in-home providers are following the legislation.

There are lots of regs for registered providers - record keeping of attendance, lateness, menu planning which are published to clients, immunization records, health related records, ensuring yards are fenced, separate sleep areas for under two's and over two's, suitable toys for all age ranges, educational activities, certain amount of natural light for the square footage, are just a few - and the two under two, three under three rule.

The agencies here provide a toy library, help with tutoring for record keeping, act as mediators if having issues with a client, assistance in menu plannning, support if having issues with a child etc.

They issue the registered status to their day home and likewise, if the regs aren't being followed, they can withdraw it too.

There are no benefits in terms of the numbers of children a registered carer can have vs an unregistered but a registered carer are the only ones who can accept subsidized clients.

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In Ontario Agencies provide and require everything you pretty much mentioned. However they also take $30-40% of our income before deductions. I myself do all the above and I have no concerns about hireling an independent inspectors to come in once a year and also make Unscheduled visits to make sure I'm compiling with safety standards and regulation. As mentioned today by a PC MPP she said that it seems like the government and agencies are trying to make us join a franchise. We still offer the same services just get paid less from paying the middle man. Also what was comical a NDP MPP asked an agency rep if they paid for a license and if they pay for inspections. Basically he was asking why should ICPs pay if they don't have to.

Also just to mention a big problem within the agency model is that they are self regulating their providers. It makes sense to let some things slide as if they were to close the home they would lose money. It's a flawed system IMO

Absolutely Teagansmom! Our for profit agencies are a mess! I've mentioned on FB before, the agency dayhome on my street that I visited briefly. Egads! Reeked of cigarettes and pot, dirty, in disrepair, hardly any toys. She DID have a child's table (which I gave her) and 2 folding, child sized lawn chairs. THAT was an agency approved home (Wee Watch)! Try and explain how that's not just a money grab....

I felt last night's committee was really good. The vibe was positive and it seemed to me that the Libs are softening to some of our ideas...particularly the need for a new licensing model. I'm not sure we'll win out on the ratios (still hoping so), but the licensing would be a huge step. I'd like to see those ratios changed completely, in particular, the 2 under 2 and 3 under 3 currently in place of agencies. It's ridiculous!!! If those are in place in the name of safety, then large centres should be held to the same rules.

And the agencies are not the same across the province - so saying we should all join an agency in order to be "regulated" and "be on an even playing field" and "adhere to the same standards across the board," (everything the agencies are blabbering about right now) doesn't make sense, because they are NOT the same! Providers would not all have to adhere to the same standards - they would be at the mercy of whatever agency happened to exist in their city.

I found it great that all the ICPs stressed the ratios in centres and how can they any safe with the ratios they have. I absolutely loved Kim's speech about the "facts and opinions" about fires, ratios, and doing the job we do.

where can you view the committee hearings?

Committee meeting are over. They were held on Monday and Tuesday. I believe they will be re aired on the ontario legislature channel sometime on the weekend from what I've heard

I knew they were over, I didn't realize you were all watching them LIVE. Thanks

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Originally Posted by torontokids

where can you view the committee hearings?

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They will be rebroadcast this weekend. Go to the Ontario Legislature site and look under debates and proceedings to find the webcasts.