Who would you believe.??

The new FQA sheet is out about all the new rules of Bill 10 and one of the new ones is all children on premises count.....so parents at drop off and pick ups with a younger or older sibling count for those few minutes, play dates where the parents stays counts, etc. BUT.....Who would do you believe? I've called the ministry (Inreguards to home play dates) four different times.Different days, different person each time. My caregiver friend did the same.And we have both got the same answer every single time......if the child's parents stays those children do not count. !?!?

where are you reading this info?

www.cicpo.ca

https://word.office.live.com/wv/Word...ACT+FAQ_s.docx

Q. If other children are present in the home accompanied by their OWN parent ( providers child’s friend visiting if parent stays, family member visiting with their child, parent and child coming for an interview, etc.) do those children count in the providers numbers?
A. Yes. All children on the premises count in your numbers.

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Originally Posted by babydom

Q. If other children are present in the home accompanied by their OWN parent ( providers child’s friend visiting if parent stays, family member visiting with their child, parent and child coming for an interview, etc.) do those children count in the providers numbers?
A. Yes. All children on the premises count in your numbers.

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I thought this was a no because their parent is supervising and is in no way a part of your daycare. What next...please leave yor Childs sibling in the car when dropping off and picking up because it puts me over ratio....what a crock!!

I know. Ppl are outraged because even the child in the car is left in your driveway which is on your premises so,they count. So petty so stupid. But yet when I called muliptal times I was told it was ok. I just do not know whose word to take to not risk a fine!!

Why are they doing that? I don't see why that even matters. They are just coming out with outrageous rule they can fine more people that's just ridiculous! I still don't understand how they plan on finding these daycares that are private that don't follow the bill 10 or even numbers makes no sense to me

But parents can get fined for leaving a child in a car so now what?

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Originally Posted by babydom

The new FQA sheet is out about all the new rules of Bill 10 and one of the new ones is all children on premises count.....so parents at drop off and pick ups with a younger or older sibling count for those few minutes, play dates where the parents stays counts, etc. BUT.....Who would do you believe? I've called the ministry (Inreguards to home play dates) four different times.Different days, different person each time. My caregiver friend did the same.And we have both got the same answer every single time......if the child's parents stays those children do not count. !?!?

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I know it different province but play dates count here too even if other adult if they are in a dayhome. We can have play date with other providers in public place just like children meeting new friend who is there with own parent. The second a child step into the house, they are counted. We also have this if sibling with mom at pick up/drop off. We have to explain that they count, that this our livelihood and we must not risk being closed down and so sibling must stay in car or parent and child remain on doorstep for us to get coat and shoe on child who here.

The only way to regulate home daycares effectively is to license them as individuals and independently. That way there is a database tracking everyone. Without a license then it should be illegal. Like trade people, they may be capable of doing their jobs, even trained, but no licensing means they are not allowed to do their job. It should be mandatory and work in conjunction with the CRA to help to also deal with those working for cash under the table. Any rules in place will not be enforced properly and efficiently unless they can keep track of all providers and visit them regularly to make sure they are sticking to the rules ongoing. It would be harder for people to hide if they are breaking the rules and because it would be monitored better in general, less people would be inclined to break the law of there was regular inspections that were actually carried out.

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Originally Posted by babydom

Q. If other children are present in the home accompanied by their OWN parent ( providers child’s friend visiting if parent stays, family member visiting with their child, parent and child coming for an interview, etc.) do those children count in the providers numbers?
A. Yes. All children on the premises count in your numbers.

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Same here too.

Children of house guest count. Own children's play dates after school or in summer count. And so do client interview children. This why I schedule interview for immediately after day care or in nap if not all children in that day.

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Originally Posted by Suzie_Homemaker

We also have this if sibling with mom at pick up/drop off. We have to explain that they count, that this our livelihood and we must not risk being closed down and so sibling must stay in car or parent and child remain on doorstep for us to get coat and shoe on child who here.

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It is illegal to leave a child alone in a car in Ontario. It is neglect! This is some major BS right there! I am so happy that I'm not going to work with this nonsense. It does a big fat zero to make children safer

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Originally Posted by bright sparks

It is illegal to leave a child alone in a car in Ontario. It is neglect!

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I have long drive and parent park right next to front door, maybe 6 feet away from door. I think if parent was leaving child in car to go into store or even on main road would be different. I not sure if it illegal here or not when parent in such close proximity. No different really than strapping child in car seat while they brush snow off car in Winter.

Add - Found this. It say only Quebec is age for leaving child in car which must be 7. Nothing for Ontario. Page 3 has table.

http://cwrp.ca/sites/default/files/p...ns/en/144e.pdf

I know it's so frustrating!! I just don't know who to believe. U write one thing but then tell me another on the phone...urgh!!!!

I think, where there is a risk of fine with Bill 10, it best to be over cautious.

I would avoid inside playdate, explain to client their children are counted in ratios even if for few short minutes at drop off/pick up, and then when it been in effect for little while, things might be clearer. Always uncertainty when reg change until initial issue sorted out.

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Originally Posted by bright sparks

The only way to regulate home daycares effectively is to license them as individuals and independently. ~ and visit them regularly to make sure they are sticking to the rules ongoing.

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What you are describing is what we have here, minus the subsidy part. I completely understand why you are saying this, and I agree, but the reality of this kind of a plan would likely be worse for a lot of you than it is now. In order to be visited, there has to be someone to do the visiting. A person with their own opinions and beliefs. The daycare providers won't get to pick who that is, so what if the person doing that job, doesn't like you? What if s/he doesn't like daycares in basements, or doesn't like the way you have your play spaces arranged? There is usually a lot of room for interpretation and misunderstanding in rules and laws. (That's why the lawyers get paid the big bucks!)

In my area, we have a great office for our support, but in some of them, holy cow! I feel really sorry for a lot of the providers and what they have to put up with. For example, the provider was going to lose her licence because the windows of the basement were 1 inch too high on the wall, according to the person doing the inspection. There are stories of the inspectors going into the provider's bedroom and rifling through the dresser drawers. These were the types of situations where the provider had no recourse. There was no one to turn to. Then we unionized. And that just opened up a whole other kettle of fish!

What you are suggesting, makes sense, on paper, but when people are involved, things just get more and more complicated. You would lose more and more of the freedom you want and in the end, the people who want to do something illegal, will still do it! Like I posted yesterday, daycare fraud is a very big business in Que. and we have to most structured system in the country.

I plan to use common sense and would like to think that the inspectors will too in the sense that a parent standing in my doorway with a school age child or infant in sitter while dressing other child is best and safest for everyone but for sure will not be allowing the other child to enter into the playroom or run around the back yard at pick up they will be glued to mom for the 5 minutes they are here. I won't be doing playdates, etc. I interview in the evenings anyways and will only allow a parent and infant to come again for a few minutes for the purpose of dropping off the forms and meeting the other children in care but not staying to play. It means we will need to have an empty space for a couple of weeks or the new child will need to start daycare cold turkey which truthfully has always worked out fine for me. I always consider integration as something the parent needs not the child.

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Originally Posted by kindertime

What you are describing is what we have here, minus the subsidy part. I completely understand why you are saying this, and I agree, but the reality of this kind of a plan would likely be worse for a lot of you than it is now. In order to be visited, there has to be someone to do the visiting. A person with their own opinions and beliefs. The daycare providers won't get to pick who that is, so what if the person doing that job, doesn't like you? What if s/he doesn't like daycares in basements, or doesn't like the way you have your play spaces arranged? There is usually a lot of room for interpretation and misunderstanding in rules and laws. (That's why the lawyers get paid the big bucks!)

In my area, we have a great office for our support, but in some of them, holy cow! I feel really sorry for a lot of the providers and what they have to put up with. For example, the provider was going to lose her licence because the windows of the basement were 1 inch too high on the wall, according to the person doing the inspection. There are stories of the inspectors going into the provider's bedroom and rifling through the dresser drawers. These were the types of situations where the provider had no recourse. There was no one to turn to. Then we unionized. And that just opened up a whole other kettle of fish!

What you are suggesting, makes sense, on paper, but when people are involved, things just get more and more complicated. You would lose more and more of the freedom you want and in the end, the people who want to do something illegal, will still do it! Like I posted yesterday, daycare fraud is a very big business in Que. and we have to most structured system in the country.

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I'm coming from a country where home based childcare is heavily regulated by the government requiring mandatory training and regular government inspectors coming into the home and guess what, it works. There is no room for opinion. There are a set of standards for all, and the inspectors follow the same framework where it's irrelevant what their opinions and preferences are for. You need your home checked before you can even open so no worry over being closed down because you wouldn't be open in the first place. The system works and I'm sure there are flaws, nothing is perfect, but it certainly focus' more on child safety than Bill 10 claims too. There is no subsidiary either. Low income families would just get a greater tax credit per month similar to CCTB. Additionally the system supports and offers resources to the childcare providers. Should changes need to be made to a providers premises or property, there are grants and funding options. They are also faced with strict age ratios. As I said it is heavily regulated and it works for them. I'm qualified to provide care in this system and my husband is also which would allow us to have more children as long as square footage was sufficient. Children are also never allowed to be left with an assistant or family member or friend even in an emergency unless they are a licensed childcare provider, hence why my husband did the required training too.

Ok no offense to anyone, but I think maybe some of us are extremely sensitive! I understand the fines, and $250,000 fine and so forth.. But to really believe you would be fined for having a parent pick up their child with another child in their care is absolutely ridulous! Yes, I understand everyone needs and wants to be cautious but this is beyond cautious! So, if a girl guide come to my door with her mother selling cookies and I ask them to come in wand wait in the foyer while I gather some money to purchase te cookies, I will be fined?? Ludicrous!! I don't believe it and I don't believe I or anyone would be fined for that or for any other children accompanied by their parents at pick up time! The only thing I will stress about is making sure I follow with age requirements and max 5 kids. I think that is what their really looking into and fining for....the rest is just scare tactics.. Which seem to be working!!

In BC if the Parent is with the child you do not count the child in your numbers
you are looking after your daycare children and the parent is looking after her child

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Originally Posted by Van

In BC if the Parent is with the child you do not count the child in your numbers
you are looking after your daycare children and the parent is looking after her child

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And this is how I thought it was in Ontario too

innisfildaycare..... ..Yes of coarse I'm being over caution. But this is my livelihood and I'm not rich so I have to. A caregiver around the corner from me got fined 2000$ because she was one over five for FIVE mintues. Cuz a parent was late and didn't pick up before a school child came home. I'm not sure where you are but here they are sooooo picky and I have a really mean neighbour that's out for me. So as stupid as I may be ill continue to follow the rules to a tee. I'm not willing to take any risks regardless how small they may seem.

babydom where do you live? Do you think your neighbour would really do something so mean? I totally understand what both are saying as many providers are worried and that too could be due to location and neighbourhood but there are so many providers who don't give a s***! The other day there were 3 of them smoking cigarettes at the park talking about lowering prices and taking 10 kids in each one admitted she had 15! There will be providers who wont go by the ages I know of one and the parents are fine with it. But those are the kind of people Im sure they will be after.

I never thought living in a Condo could benefit me because I found a loop hole. If a parent comes to my door to pick up with their other children they can wait outside my door (hallway)since technically that is not my property only whats past the door.

Babydom- I totally understand, but pleaae keep in mind that ur neighbour actually did have more then 5 kids in her care at that moment, whether it was 5 min or not. That is totally different then a parent pickin up a child with their other child. I also would think there was more to that story then so happens the agents showed up at her door whe she was over 1 kid for 5 minutes. I mean if the agents came after the fact, would proof would they have to give a fine of $2000.00? It would be a he said she said game, hence the fact, there has got I be more behind that $2000 fine. Just curious where abouts you are located?

I have 2 sets of parents who pickup with the older sibling in tow(who don't come to my daycare), and they stick around about 10 minutes, so does that make me over ratio even with their parent present? If so, what do I tell them to do with the other child? One parent takes the bus too.

That's our neighbour :) she made the complaint that she was one over. Told them the exact time. They happen to show up at that time and she got fined. Of coarse that's what I know from the caregiver. And ur right there definitely can be more to the fine, I was thinking that too. But it scared me none the less. I have a neighbour that hates kids. Gets mad if one steps on her driveway gets mad when we're playing outside and being Loud. Then I also have another daycare five doors down who hates me!!! Is soooo jealous that I'm always full and she's not. Copies me to a tee to annoy me. I wish I lived on a street where it was just me as a daycare and everyone else was at work then I could do whatever I want without to much worry of calls. Our street is also very busy with ppl not cars. Our street leads to a playgroup, library, shopping centre, EYC centre, bank and daycare centre. So many ppl walk by my place to get somewhere. I just feel like there are sooooo many eyes on me then it makes me feel like I'm walking on egg shells. U know?

Well apparently yes u would be over according to these new rules. Some are saying they have to tell the parents to pick up with out the child. Or get the child to wait off ur property. But a lot are saying it's also against the law to leave a child alone while picking up another. so many are ignoring that one. Honestly I will probably too. Nervous about it but I'll just make sure pick ups and drop offs are quick no sibling comes in to play like they do now.

Babydom I totally understand and that is so horrible! I have a neighbour who called the ministry to complain that I was over my numbers and they came here to inspect me. When the inspectors came here the stood at my door (they came around nap time) I told them to come on in and take a look they said no it was okay they didn't want to disrupt the kids. I could have had 25 kids in a room and they didn't move past the door which I think is so sad/wrong.

If you are in Ontario I asked the ministry to clear something up while they were here (I also asked about Bill 10 they said they couldn't give me any detail bc they didn't know lol) I asked them if I have 5 full-time kids can I take in 5 more kids for before and after school care. She told me that one before and after school care counts as a one space so if you take in 3 before/after school you can only take in 2 additional kids full-time. The fact she was over her numbers means she wasn't operating her daycare legally she was over her number regardless of pick up times. There is one daycare in my area who got shut up down bc she had 5 full-time and 5 before/after school and when she went to drop the kids off at school she left the full-time kids with her 16 year old daughter. She should have had only 5 kids regardless if it was full-time, part-time or before/after school and she didn't follow and took in extra kids.

I personally think your neighbours is a little crazy how she could pin point when that child is there or how many extra and the exact time is so crazy to me lol She must really pay attention to what you guys do!!

Another reason why I am happy im in a building lol

Oh I know she has nothing better to do. Lol I know all about the ratios I just felt bad for that caregiver because you can have as many kids enrolled as you want as long as you have no more than five at one time so it worked really well for her that she had five during the day and one would leave at 300 and then another one we would come at 3:35/340 after school to replace that one. he would never be there on school holidays or summer or anything so it worked well. just so happened that one day the parent was late picking up at 345. School boy came at 340 and so did ministry. Then mom came 345 so literary 5 mins to the min :(. I think the mom paid the fine because it was her fault for being late. But ofcoarse there could have been more to it. I just got the one side of it. :)

Yes I'm in Ontario :) few hrs from TO

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Originally Posted by bright sparks

I thought this was a no because their parent is supervising and is in no way a part of your daycare. What next...please leave yor Childs sibling in the car when dropping off and picking up because it puts me over ratio....what a crock!!

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I'm sorry....I agree bright sparks...this is utter nonsense....I will probably ALWAYS at one time or another be having a parent pick up their younger child in the evening...and bringing along their older child who is no longer with me because they are in school...I WILL NOT BE ASKING THEM TO KEEP THEM IN THE CAR UNATTENDED....THIS IS B.S.

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Originally Posted by kindertime

What you are describing is what we have here, minus the subsidy part. I completely understand why you are saying this, and I agree, but the reality of this kind of a plan would likely be worse for a lot of you than it is now. In order to be visited, there has to be someone to do the visiting. A person with their own opinions and beliefs. The daycare providers won't get to pick who that is, so what if the person doing that job, doesn't like you? What if s/he doesn't like daycares in basements, or doesn't like the way you have your play spaces arranged? There is usually a lot of room for interpretation and misunderstanding in rules and laws. (That's why the lawyers get paid the big bucks!)

In my area, we have a great office for our support, but in some of them, holy cow! I feel really sorry for a lot of the providers and what they have to put up with. For example, the provider was going to lose her licence because the windows of the basement were 1 inch too high on the wall, according to the person doing the inspection. There are stories of the inspectors going into the provider's bedroom and rifling through the dresser drawers. These were the types of situations where the provider had no recourse. There was no one to turn to. Then we unionized. And that just opened up a whole other kettle of fish!

What you are suggesting, makes sense, on paper, but when people are involved, things just get more and more complicated. You would lose more and more of the freedom you want and in the end, the people who want to do something illegal, will still do it! Like I posted yesterday, daycare fraud is a very big business in Que. and we have to most structured system in the country.

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Riffling through the dresser drawers! They CANNOT come into your home...go up to your bedroom and go through your dresser drawers! SERIOUSLY....WHAT THE HELL!....You said it...."there are STORIES"...AND THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT THEY ARE....THINK ABOUT IT....

Your new rules seem to be somewhat similar to Manitoba. For private we are allowed 4 kids (5-8 if licensed). Of those 4 only 2 can be under 2. All children in the home are counted. So even if my husband is home with my daughter upstairs (daycare is completely in the basement) she is still counted. Our fines are not that strict though.

At the end of the day it doesn't matter who you believe (what they said on the phone versus what they wrote) what is in writing pretty much always over rules spoken word. Hopefully they clarify this before it comes into effect as it clearly isn't very intelligent as is!

My concern is if they sent in the questions as on the FAQ sheet it was all grouped together and they just answered accordingly. BUT I do believe that common sense will prevail. There is the letter of the law and the spirit of the law. The problem is you could have a mom and child over to play and then as soon as an inspector shows up say oh they are just dropping off even if it is mid morning since child could have had an appointment. The no is so that the privilege of using common sense at the door for 5 minutes twice a day is not abused.

I agree the hysteria level has reached epic proportions - and I am one of the biggest nail biters. I have two older boys that no longer come to my daycare but pass by my house. Their mom told them that in the event of a thunderstorm they are to ring my doorbell and stand in my garage till she can pick them up. She didn't ask me, I heard from one of them. So now I must tell her that because of this INSANE bill her two boys must risk injury rather than the common sense approach that any of our mothers in years past would have told us to do.

Clearly the Libs do not want us in business. Pay your bills ladies and anyone younger than 40 get a new line of work.

I would hope that CIPCO would start collecting these scenario stories too to also share as to how silly/dangerous the rules are becoming and asking what the repercussions are for when people act like good people and let a child come in out of a lightening storm, or panic every Thursday when the 9 year old down the street delivers the penny saver newspaper, etc.