Angry Boy

Good afternoon ladies!

I have reopened my dayhome after moving away from my previous town a year ago. I had my first day home boy start on Monday and we have been having some major up and downs. Monday was great! My kids got along with him, he was a sweet boy. Tuesday I took the kids to the park. He yelled at me on the swings and told me "if you don't push me I'll punch you". kept telling me to stop talking to him. Said the other kids were mean to him when they did...nothing....not hing at all. When I told him we needed to talk he ran from me and said "no, you cant catch me". Spoke with Mom and she gave him a talk and said it was because she let him stay up late. Yesterday he came and was the great kid from Monday....today...Tu esday boy is back!! The kids were at the playground and he wanted a turn with a piece of equipment my daughter was using. He didn't say anything, just started trying to pull her and push her away and the said "I'll fight you!!" When I told him to stop and come talk to me he ran, hid under a slide and said "you can't get me from here". I managed to pull him out and tried putting him in a time out. He wouldn't stay put so I carried him back home. :no:

This boy is turning 4 in a month and a half. His favourite phrases are "oh my god." and "what the hell".

Has anyone been in a similar situation? Advice?

Thanks everyone, this forum is fantastic for advice and guidence.

One of the first kids I had was like this and the same age. I only had him part time due to his parents being shift workers and he'd moved around a lot of other providers (due to being a part timer, apparently). His behaviour improved at the end of a three day run as I was very strict about enforcing my daycare rules (manners and respect are very important here) but then he'd be off for two weeks and come back as a complete demon! After reading lots on here I decided to terminate quickly (after a moth) before his behaviour and rudeness spread to my own children and possibly jeopardized the other full timers I had. I had daily chats with the parents (as I do with all my parents re. their kids day and general behaviour etc.) and the mom was not surprised by anything I told her and wasn't willing to do anything to help with his behaviour. (They were paying for extra days they weren't using and I suggested he came to the daycare more regularly without such long breaks).

Oh my! What was he like in your interview?

Personally I think I would tell mom you don't think it's going to work. It's going to be hard to curb this type of behavior. I just don't have patience for a child like that anymore lol

He was a nice kid at interview, got along with my kids. His first whole day was fantastic too. It's like a Jeckal and Hyde type thing. one day good, next day horrid, then good, now horrible...oy vey!

I really do believe that a lot of times, the kids who need the most loving behave like this. I'd want to put in at least month and see if I notice any changes before terminating. HOWEVER, the parents MUST be on board and willing to help as well. If I feel they are hindering and not helping and their child's behaviour starts to spread to my other children than I'd be more willing to terminate at that point.

I don't believe just passing off children with bad behaviour to other providers is the answer. I try to think how I'd feel if that was my child. (Provided that I wasn't enabling the behaviour of course!!)

Remember he's still young and like most of us, change us hard. He's still adjusting to your routine and rules.

I fully agree. I had to terminate a girl once for her violent behavior, she needed her parents but I am certain they didn't give her much of their time. I worked with her for 8 months and tried to get her parents help as well, but nothing changed. She started destroying our belongings and started getting physical withe the other children so I had to let her go.

It's more the things that this boy is saying that concern me. Threatening to punch or fight and telling the kids and myself to stop talking to him (it's a in a very aggressive way.) His mom says that he likes to watch video games, I'm assuming the ones his dad plays. That kind of concerns me.

I have a 4yo dcb who also likes to say omg and play games where things die. He has an older brother and moms bf who he plays video games with and I'm fairly certain that's where he gets it from. Thankfully, he's a sweet boy and I have very little issues with him otherwise!

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Originally Posted by 5 Little Monkeys

I really do believe that a lot of times, the kids who need the most loving behave like this. I'd want to put in at least month and see if I notice any changes before terminating. HOWEVER, the parents MUST be on board and willing to help as well. If I feel they are hindering and not helping and their child's behaviour starts to spread to my other children than I'd be more willing to terminate at that point.

I don't believe just passing off children with bad behaviour to other providers is the answer. I try to think how I'd feel if that was my child. (Provided that I wasn't enabling the behaviour of course!!)

Remember he's still young and like most of us, change us hard. He's still adjusting to your routine and rules.

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While I totally agree with much of this, in the schools I found even the most difficult kids (even in grade 6) were great kids when you found a way to get in and connect. BUT...as home daycare providers who work alone, all day and long hours sometimes it is best for everyone involved...including the `problem`child to call it quits. What can you handle?

Some kids just need to be in a centre where there is addition staff to trade off when things are going downhill to provide caregiver relief and where resources are more plentiful.

You don't need to take on more than you can handle and there is no wrong is admitting this is too much to handle.

I'd make it clear, verbally and in writing with the family now that his behavior is not acceptable that you will give him X amount of time to show improvement or you'll need to terminate. They need to be on board and helping to get things on track. Otherwise they will need to find new care, preferably at a centre. They also needed to be honest up front before you signed the contract.

DHB is still having a bad day, so I put a show on for the kids to calm him down some. I came downstairs and heard him yell at the other kids. I went to see what happened and the kids said that they were talking about birthday parties. DHB yelled at the kids, I'm not even sure what he said but at the end he said they couldn't come to his birthday and that he was telling his mom and getting them into trouble. I went to calmly talk to him and he yelled at me so loudly and with so much anger. I have him in a time out. I don't have a trial period written in my contract. I am adding it now, but...how much time should I give this boy to adjust. I would love to make it work....I just don't know how much time to adjust is usually needed.

Lee-bee, I agree. My "quitting" time differs given different situations and circumstances.

Shannie, I expect 2-4 weeks normally but he may take longer. It will totally be up too as only you know how much you can handle.

Assuming for the moment that you are willing to put in some time...

Would you consider taking a video of this behaviour? Short, maybe 30 seconds- 1 minute. Keep it for a time when he is "happy" and when you can, take a moment to watch it privately with just him, (even just on the screen of the camera/phone.) I tried this once with a child who was having an issue (I used a photograph) and it helped.

Seeing what the rest of us are seeing in these moments can put it in a new perspective for the child. Keep the tone serious but not scolding. I don't think I would recommend taking a video every "bad" day. I think I would use the same one over and over, if necessary, to avoid making it an attention-getter. Use it as a starting point for the conversation. "This is what I saw, yesterday. How come you were so angry?"

That's my first suggestion. The second thing, give him alternatives. What could he have said in that situation? How should he have handled it? IF he can tell you why he was angry, you should be able to give him more appropriate actions or words.

The last thing, practising and modelling. Show him what you're talking about. Say the things you want him to say and have him repeat. Maybe make a short video of that too, to compare.

Maybe that all sounds like a lot of work, but I think I agree with 5LM, if no one takes the time with these kids, what will they be like as adults? Yikes!

One last thought, (I won't even get into my rant about video games...) does dcb have older siblings? Older kids he hangs around? That could be a clue as to where it's coming from.

I am totally willing to work with him, to a point. I only have him and my own two. If it starts affecting my kids I will not keep him. My kids are pretty soft spoken and we don't tend to yell or say some of the things he says, they look at me confused. my 4 year old son has told him a couple of times "we don't say that in our house". During our last talk here he said that "he gets so mad he could puke". no siblings. I assume that he hears these phrases alot as he repeats them. I will try the video suggestion during the next outburst and see how that goes.

I did end up putting him in a different room than my kids and have him flip through some books. Did this for half an hour and now he is happily playing again. Maybe being an only child, he's not comfortable with all the noise/kids around constantly.

Although I agree most children like this are the ones needing most love, you can't rescue everyone. Mom seemed quite dismissive with her comment that he was up late. If a late night results in such anger, then why would any parent make this situation.

For me, it comes down to the well being of the group. I would not tolerate anyone coming in off the street and treating my children this way in their home/daycare. Just because these parents are handing you a daily fee, that does not mean he gets a lower standard of acceptable behaviour as anyone else entering your home.

I am not yelled at in my house by anyone, adult or child. For it to have already happen more than one time, would be enough.

Give yourself an amount of time for this to settle. End of week, two weeks, whatever you think is fine and if it's not settled by then, get rid of him.

I am giving him another week. I had a good chat with Mom last night. She said that DHB told her that my almost 6 year old hit him in the head and it made him mad (she swatted a skitter). I did tell her at the time to not do that as DHB wasn't happy. Anyways, she also then told me that in his last dayhome there were no kids his age. All were younger, so he played alone most of the time. That makes some sense to me. He can't seem to play for a long amount of time without getting mad (my niece is the same way, only child for her first 5 years). I told Mom that we would try giving him frequent alone times and see if that helps...she sent him with an ipad. Cross your fingers that we have a good day today!!!!

Mom also told me that she understands that if he continues that I need to look out for the best interest of my kids (she volunteered this) I am very thankful for such an understanding parent as I haven't had the pleasure of too many in the past!

Understanding, caring and parents that work with us make a world of difference when it comes to working with children that need a lot of extra care! Hopefully you guys are able to make some good progress! I would start with books from the library for kids dealing with emotions. There should be plenty that talk about anger and ways to control it. Look for videos as well (youtube should have some). At 4.5yrs he is old enough to take on ownership and help find constructive ways to deal with it. Help him learn to identify these emotions and remove himself to start. make a special, quiet, calm alone place with some favorite books that he can retreat to when angry. Reward and praise him when he removes himself. Overtime work to have him deal with the anger without having to leave the situation but that will take time.

Best of luck!

Awesome to hear that mom is willing to work with you!

It sounds like they have found a great provider with you and I wish you all the best in working with this boy. Good luck :)

Thank you 5 Little Monkeys!!! Today has been great so far! yay!

Yay!!! :) that is great news

I am happy for you that the parents are supportive and you are willing to work with him.
Unfortunately in my case of a very structured daycare I had a child who did not like structure, show any respect for adults, attempted to hit me the day before I ended care and parents who did not seem at all surprised by my reports of his behaviour or want to work with me to better the situation.
There were red flags from the get go with him from the initial playdate with his father but I chose to look past them thinking it was first day nerves. I had 2 kids of my own and four daycare kids as well as this boy and after MUCH discussion with my assistant and the teacher who came in regularly to provide preschool education we all agreed that he was just not a good fit for the group as a whole and that his behaviour was negatively impacting the other children. (One dkb completely clammed up and kept away from the group when my angry boy was with us and he absolutely shone when angry boy was not around.)
We did work hard with him over that month and I really agonised over the decision because I hated to let the parents down (he only needed 4 months care until JK).
For me in my situation I made the best choice for my daycare. I felt bad about it for a few weeks but I knew I couldn't have done more. All the kids in my care flourished after he went and I learnt a valuable lesson about taking on part-timers.
I hope it works out well for you