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You really oughta clue them in and tell them you are unlicensed and that 80% of kids are in unlicensed home daycares. That should do it. People really have no clue, it's so hard to get them on our side when they don't understand what's going on.Quote:
Originally Posted by treeholm
Nope, they see me as an old alarmist grandma LOL. I am not going to convince two young women who know they are right and I am clueless... I'm satisfied that I sounded the alarm... if they don't heed the warnings, I won't feel badly that I didn't try.
I was just trying to read through the actual bill proposal and it looks like they are proposing that anyone who stays unlicensed would have to disclose that they are unlicensed and have the parents sign off that they are aware that their provider is unlicensed.
It seems kind of like branding unlicensed caregivers with a scarlet letter.
12. (1) Any person who does not hold a licence shall, before providing child care in a circumstance described in paragraph 2 or 4 of subsection 6 (3), or, if relevant, in subsection 6 (4), disclose to the parent of the child, in a manner that may be prescribed, that the person does not hold a licence.
Duty to retain record of disclosure
(2) A person who makes a disclosure in accordance with subsection (1) shall retain a record of the disclosure in a prescribed manner for at least the prescribed time period, or if no time period is prescribed, for at least two years from the date the disclosure is made.
But even people who are registered with an agency are unlicensed, it is the agency who is licensed, right? So all home daycares would have to sign this, wouldn't they?
My understanding is that the provider themselves is licensed.Quote:
Originally Posted by treeholm
I took a daycare course through York Region and they were heavily urging all the providers to get licensed. They said you would have to submit floor plans, fire plans, measurements of your property line and fence, have fire inspector come, etc and then pass the licensing requirements. That is how you would get licensed and then you could go with an agency. I know licensed providers who still take on their own clients though
That could be to address what some providers are doing when they call themselves licensed, when they are working for an agency. I have seem several ads of home daycare that claim to be licensed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Spixie33
I don't have any problem explaining potential clients that I am not licensed (or work for an agency) and the benefits they are getting for me being unlicensed. It has not been an issue so far for the ones who ask for an explanation about the differences and this is a though area for providers since most parents are looking for licensed daycare centers and live-in nannies.
I worked for an agency and never have to do any of that. I've never had to apply for a license myself since they do not exist for individual providers. I just had to sign an agreement with the agency and they were the ones with a license. You don't even need to have any childhood related education because theoretically they have ECE's supporting and guiding you (of course, it sounds fancy but not quite the reality)Quote:
Originally Posted by Spixie33
We will actually be able to use the ratio to our advantage because there will always be one less child in an unlicensed home meaning our time is not spread out as much.
We all know that will make absolutely no difference but to a mom of a baby it could be a bargaining chip for us to use.
What do you tell them are the advantages for having an unlicensed provider?Quote:
Originally Posted by Artsand crafts
I have had that question posed to me from a parent once and I blanked out. All I could say was something about how licensing isn't a 247 safety net because inspections only come sporadically.
I know dozens of reasons how unlicensed care benefits me and my business and gives me a lot of freedom in terms of who I take on and what I charge....but what are the benefits to a parent?
I didn't get what you are saying. Could you explain more? ThanksQuote:
Originally Posted by playfelt
Hmmm that's strange. The course I took was through York Professional Care. They license home daycares and also have daycare centres in York Region. They say on their website that they make all their providers do the following :Quote:
Originally Posted by Artsand crafts
Each York Professional Care & Education Provider has been thoroughly checked and has completed the following steps for approval:
Agency screening – interview for suitability, personal reference checks for competence, home visits for safety, fire inspection and verified police clearance
Minimum 25 hour Provider Orientation Training Course
Child related First Aid and CPR Course
Proof of good health for herself and all members of the household and assurance that they are free of communicable diseases and have proof of a TB test
Compliance with all health and safety standards in her home as set forth by the Fire Department, Public Health Department and Provincial legislation
I knew a sweet girl who was trying to get licensed through them and all the fencing measurements, inspections etc were taking so long that she finally decided to go unlicensed.
I'm glad you asked that Spixie33...I was actually going to but you beat me to it! I want to be prepared with good reasons in case my current families ask me just that....TIA!
1. someone mentioned about insurance, I know of 2 companies that will insure up to 5 children. 6 children no way. So someone has to send this out to the goverment, they just don't have insurance for up to 6 kids.
2. so my 15 yr old is taking civics and I was telling her about this bill (she wants me to print it out so they can have a discussion on it) she was telling me all the steps it takes for a bill to pass. And its a long one. So just because it passes the first 3 readings, means that it goes to the next level. Tommorrow I will get her to tell me the whole thing and how the bill passes, but even she said it does take a while.
3. I refuse to licensed. I did it when I first started 10 yrs ago and it was a joke. I refuse to get paid sqaut for my services. And all they did was push to go to their center for play dates so they can see how I interact with the children. So when I went I couldn't believe that they weren't shut down. I think the goverment needs to clean their own house before they come and clean mine.
Sorry if I answer...Quote:
Originally Posted by Artsand crafts
I think she means that we would have an advantage because we would only have 5 kids : 1 provider
vs a licensed provider who could have 6 kids :1 provider
Parents usually like small provider :kid ratios so we would look better on paper in that department
also when I went thru an agency, it was wierd that they wanted to make sure that my fridge temp was set to a certain level but didn't care what I fed the kids. Their surprise visits were to sit and chat and annoy me and the children. also the tb test, really because why would I need one but no one else in my house or the parents dropping them off, they also didn't help when their was a problem.
When we go through an agency the parents are bound by the rules of the agency too. When we work independently the parents and I work out a plan together. The parent retains more control over what they want for their child. It allows me to be more flexible in working with a family such as hours, fees, changes to the schedule. The fee is generally lower since there is no middle man taking a cut.
Then go on to show what you have that means you don't need it from the agency such as your own equipment, toys, forms, experience, trainings, workshops you have taken, the support system you have in place such as CCPRN.
I also talk about how the home visits are more disruptive than productive (I speak as having been with an agency in the past but prefer to work independently so I can better meet the needs of the parents) in the sense of because they are unannounced we would be in the middle of baking or reading a story or playing a game and then the doorbell disrupts it all and the pleasure of the activity is lost. The event is then spoiled for the child and that is not fair.
I talk about my years of experience and how when a caregiver is first starting out that for sure it helps them to have someone to show them what to do. (Makes the parent feel that they would be getting less by going with the agency - and truthfully in many cases they are as those that get tired of giving up money for nothing in return become private.)
Anything you can say that makes it that their child will lose out or the parent will lose out or lose control generally sways them to at least consider.
Being unlicensed is something we should be proud of and as far as disclosure a nice paragraph in my all about me section of my contract or somewhere in the parts the parent signs will satisfy the requirement - parent read, knows, understands and signs off on it right.
This is in my contract now which in a way already satisfies the new requirement although this section is for info and does not get an actual signature on the page so will also put it somewhere on the other forms:
2) I have experience working for a licensed dayhome agency both in Alberta and Ontario and am aware of the Ministry guidelines for family daycare. However, I found many of the “rules” confining. I realize that no two families are the same and therefore have unique needs regarding the type of childcare required. Working on my own allows me greater flexibility in forming a partnership of care with each family.
I basically tell them that I would not be able to afford what I currently offer for the benefit of their child if I worked for an agency (and explain that agencies take a huge part of their fee since for most parents that is transparent and haven't given it a though). I tell them that it would be impossible for them to find what I offer with a "licensed" provider since they would not be able to afford it because of their reduced income.Quote:
Originally Posted by Spixie33
I also think that children over the age of 4 shouldn't count in ratio's anymore because they are in school all day. They need to think about this too. If kids are in school all day how can they be counted in ratio when they are not physically here.
Got it! Thanks! That's a great selling point too!Quote:
Originally Posted by Spixie33
Yes to the above, but that is done by the agency that holds the license.Quote:
Originally Posted by Spixie33
Fire inspection: it was a fancy name to push the fire alarm button (and rarely asking about the fire extinguisher in the kitchen) when agency lady came for their monthly visit.
25 hour Provider Orientation Training Course: In my case it was around 1 hour orientation by the agency where a lady read some parts of the manual she left with me. I think you could learn much more from these kind of forums that from that manual.
Compliance with all health and safety standards in her home as set forth by the Fire Department, Public Health Department and Provincial legislation: Agency gave me a 2 or 3 pages safety checklist that covered this. I think most of it is common sense. I went above and beyond the checklist requirements since I am very cautious regarding liability. One mom that needed back up care with other providers from the same agency (when I wasn't available)told me that she felt some places were not safe (and still they were following the agency safety checklist)
These I hated, too. I thought it was just a wast of time someone just seating there and chatting. If parents knew about it I don't think they would be that impress with the agency visitsQuote:
Originally Posted by momofnerds
I checked their webpage and it seems they are a licensed agency and they also own daycare centers. They have 2 sections in their webpage one for parents interested in their daycare centers and another for parents interested in their "licensed" home daycare.Quote:
Originally Posted by Spixie33
http://yorkprofessionalcareandeducat...alPrograms.php
http://yorkprofessionalcareandeducat...eChildCare.php
It looks like the legislature did not get a chance to do the second reading yesterday. It's expected to go for the 2nd reading on Monday.
I have a random question/comment:
Does anyone know if there is any information on the # of children who have been seriously injured or died while in unlicensed care verses the # in licensed care... there has to be some percentages that would be "mind blowing"
For example, say there are 100 000 children in daycare in Canada, licensed and unlicensed combined.
Of those 100 000, 80 000 are in unlicensed care and 20 000 are in licensed.
of those 80 000 in unlicensed care say 10 were seriously injured or died while in care, this equals 0.0125%
Of those 20 000 in licensed case say 2 were seriously injured or died while in care, this equals 0.01%
Thats pretty equal in %...
Anyone have these # so it can be compared?
There is also a difference between unlicensed and illegal. I am NOT in the same category as the place in Vaughan where they had 27 children. I am unlicensed but adhere to the law.
That's the issue I'm having with this whole thing. It's truly unfair that we're all lumped into the same category. I feel that we've all been vilified by the media. The government, I believe, has stood by and let it happen without any word whatsoever in this regard because it takes the heat off them for a job very poorly done on their part. Regardless of the rules in place (some of which I agree with, some I don't), this is just another instance in which we are shown as providers, once again, that there is no one in our corner. After 20 years in this business, both licensed and unlicensed, not much has changed. We still don't have any protection. We still don't have public or government support. We still are not valued in any capacity of the business. The fact that a garbage man has more earning potential than those who raise this country's children is a very sad commentary of where we stand in the pecking order.
Remember to sign the online petition, comment on it, get everyone you know to do as well. There are MPPs in the province now following it. Make sure to contact those MPPs as well and tell them how the new legislation will impact you. http://www.thepetitionsite.com/934/6...rnization-act/
I looked at the petition, but it requires us to enter our full address and name. I wasn't comfortable with entering that information online. Also, if it's the same one I looked at, there were some spelling/gramatical mistakes in it that I thought made it seem a bit unprofessional (no offence at all toward whoever wrote it).
Completely agree with your concerns, but it seems it is all we have right now. So many people I know have already signed and/or commented on it. This is my livelihood, so I have no issue posting my name on a petition. Keep in mind there is the option to hide your name on the site as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by sunnydays
this is the thread concerning the proposed legislative changes
This is related so bear with me...
I was at the salon on Saturday morning having a makeup application. The lady doing it was asking what I did and so we started talking as she has her 2yr old with a home daycare provider. I was talking about all the changes and she was very surprised at the current law being max 5 kids and explained that her provider has 7 all at once and I clarified that they were all under 10. When I explained that her daycare was not only ILLEGAL but also most certainly UNINSURED, she just said, "Oh but I love my provider and she has been doing this for years." OMG I almost choked and had it not been for the other people there, I probably would have told her flat out what an effin disgrace she was.
Oh there's more....
I talked about the new ratio for 2 under 2 in the new act and we talked about how that's not even the ratio in centre care and that I was not 100% sure what the ratio was in centres but I thought it was 1 to 3 and the client behind me piped in that this was correct, as she is an ECE working in a centre. We were talking about how awful the news was about the death of the child in Vaughan and this cheeky cow proceeded to tell everyone in the room how this happens ALL THE TIME in UNLICENSED settings. Well I had to use everything I had to contain my rage. I immediately said that that was complete nonsense and that these incidents are tragic but extremely rare. I really got her told, I was so annoyed. If I thought I could have kept my wits about me I would have reminded her that it wasn't that long ago that the media were reporting a license daycare centre where the staff held the children down at naptime, but I had to calm myself down so I didn't start shouting at this bitch.
I was infuriated enough by the woman who dismissed legitimate reasons to report her provider and seek legal and fully insured childcare, but then to have this flipping woman spewing lies about our industry made me want to actually shut her up with my fist. I was sat with clenched fists and shaking I was so angry. The slanderous people out their badmouthing our industry should not be allowed to get away with spreading lies to innocent people. It is hard enough for parents to leave their children as it is without having these false horror stories in their heads by morons.
Rant over!
If any of the children in the home belong to the provider then she is probably legal having 7 - at least by the standards in place today.
Next thing we need to work on is how to get our message out to the families about childcare. All they see is that there are no controls on us and that we are labelled as illegal even though we are not. There is so much misunderstanding out there. We need to figure out some sort of public awareness campaign to enlighten the world and in so doing remind them they are giving up their right to have any say in what happens with their young children.
That's terrible bright sparks...I was seeing red just reading your post! A big THANK YOU to the media for saying such horrible things about home daycares, and putting us ALL in the same category as a woman who killed a child. Honestly now that this whole thing has hit, I have realized that once my youngest is in school I'm outta here. I am so discouraged and saddened by what the media has put out there. Honestly when I opened my daycare I really thought I would be in this for the long haul as I LOVE it, but it's just not worth it when EVERYONE ELSE thinks YOU'RE not worth it. I've been feeling like garbage over this whole thing. I am still somewhat in shock at how we were attacked instead of supported through some new training programs, or a registry as was proposed by the CCPRN. This whole thing has just been a slap in the face and I hate it. We don't deserve this.
Rant over.
Sorry I had meant to put that I clarified that none of the kids were either hers or over 10. Of course I know that some of these kids could have been hers and would never either jump to conclusions or bad mouth a woman without all the facts. That's I why I very clearly asked her those two things.Quote:
Originally Posted by playfelt
I just read that the second reading of the bill will be this Thursday, February 20. Has anyone heard anything?
Would you mind sourcing where you read this? Ty :)Quote:
Originally Posted by gravy_train
I read it on the message board of another daycare provider's group where I am a member. You can verify at ontla.on.ca but their server appears to be down at the moment.
Here are some things I have found - on the legislature site only found the agenda for today not what will be in the future as it is set each day based on how far they get. This about all I could find in a search and most I think is speculative rather than concrete.
http://www.oise.utoronto.ca/atkinson...Bill_143-1.pdf
http://www.durham.ca/departments/soc...14/Jan2014.pdf
Thanks, playfelt - i was able to log on to the provincial site and see that the second reading isn't scheduled yet. Here's the link to check in on;
http://www.ontla.on.ca/web/bills/bil...etail_the_bill
Oh - the first of playfelt's links (produced by the Atkinson Centre for Society and Child Development says,
"Bill 143 passed first reading in the Ontario Legislature on December 3, 2013 and has been circulated for written feedback by February 28, 2014. Committee hearings for 2nd reading have not yet been established."