When do you say enough is enough

Looking for opinions or advice.:unsure: So i have this full time child, she's starting full day kindergarten in Sept. she's been with me now for the past 4 months full time, and 4 out of the 5 days she spends the entire day screaming for mom and telling me she hates me, hates the other children the toys etc..! It's now affecting the other children as they are starting to whine and cry due to her "screaming fits". I have told both parents and they have claimed to "deal" with this issue, except it's still continuing on. This past Thursday I had dealt with her screaming for 6 hours straight, I told mom at Pick up that i have had enough of this kind of nonsense. That i had another interview to possibly fill her spot as i was considering giving her notice. Dad called me, pretty much begging me not to give up and terminate, That she has been terminated from 3 other dayhomes due to this behaviour.! I agreed to take her back on Monday, as i was told they would "work" on this behaviour over the weekend. When dad dropped her off yesterday he tells me that if she throws a fit to call her grandma and she will talk to her!!! Yesterday was a good day, well today was a day from hell! she started at 7:00 thismorning, by 9 i gave in and called grandma! Ya that was a joke! This became a game. she was screaming wanting to call Grandma! This is a joke to her, because once mom comes this child looks at me and her mother and smiles! What would you do???? I'm now refusing to call Grandma, Do i just sit her out and ignore her, hoping she will stop? This all seems to be a game to her and no matter what i do she still carries on! I'm at my wits end with her screaming and telling me she hates me etc... What would you do? Financially i don't want to terminate until i actually have another child to fill the spot, but so far thats not until possibly July/August!!! :confused:

I would discipline her more. Provide her with a "spot" to scream, where I'd leave her there away from the group, and tell her firmly that screaming is not allowed at your house, and you can come out when you stop and when you're ready. Then I would go about the activities with the other kids. giving them positive attention. If she screamed louder, I would move everyone further or to another room and place her back in the "spot" and just ignore it. She'll stop eventually once everyone stops giving her any attention. Its often boring to be screaming on your own and no one there with a response to it. She's just playing you all I think. Kids are so smart.

Ummm - ya that is a tough one - not sure I would want to make that investment to FIX this kid for a few months of income since she is predetermined to be leaving in September to full day kindergarten!

However the strategy needs to STOP working for her and the consquence for doing so needs to be enough to motivate her to STOP!

In the program - you want to SCREAM you can go in a room and lie down on a bed and be by yourself so that no one else is affected by it and than while she is GONE you do something so totally AWESOME with your other group that she misses out on!

If she is 'destructive' to things while having a tantrum - I would terminate regardless cause she is not worth the risk ... however if she will lie down on a bed and just 'scream' until she realizes that 'hey I lost my audience' 'hey no one cares I am doing this it is not working' and finally the 'hey I can hear the other kids having FUN without me - I might as well STOP and go join in'...and when she DID come out whatever fun activity that enticed her out would be OVER she would have missed it that time with the message 'oh hon sorry but you missed this today NEXT TIME you need to choose to join into the program right away instead of being angry in your bed" ... and next morning I would plan something engaging out to have as she arrives to see if it 'entices' her in to program without the 'behaviour' and than you can do the positive reinforcement of 'wow it was so nice to have you join us this morning and not miss out on any of the fun' .... that has worked in the past with children in my care who throw a fit upon arrival - although I have never had one that age who goes on THAT long - it is usually just the first 15 minutes or so until they realize it is not 'working' to get them anything here!

And IMO AT HOME if she has behaved like this during the day her world as she knows it needs to fall in around her - if it was my child who had be terminated from 1 day homes due to behaviour she would have been grounded out the wazhoo at home .... only her necessities of life would be met - no 'toys', no TV or entertainment like DVD or video games, no computer and so forth, no TREATS and so forth ... she can help do chores around the house at the end of day to 'earn' money to buy back her 'extras' and in the meantime she can play with dust bunnies in her room to 'entertain' herself with because if the parent cannot WORK because this child's behaviour is so bad she needs to learn there is no MONEY do to extras with that kid, she needs the natural consequence that you behave because it is the RIGHT thing to do.

And if that did not work - my family would be going for counseling with a professional because NO CHILD should have that much power in a home to put a parents livelihood at risk at FOUR because they do not want to go to 'daycare' and are throwing a fit as a result!

I implement timeouts with children who are less than 1 1/2 for doing something wrong. It's my method of letting them know that their behaviour is unacceptable. For a short time, 30 seconds to a minute they are sitting on the sideline without any toys and being separated from their friends and play. It lets them know that they have done something wrong. I am consistent and never give up. Eventually the children learn great behaviour in my daycare.

I've had screamer babies but this is why I prefer to start children as babies, because once they get over their intial screaming phases they learn my rules and what is acceptable behaviour. When you take on a 2, 3, or 4 year old they have already learned how to manipulate their parents and their daycare providers, just my opinion. If they had great parents and a great daycare provider they would still be THERE!

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Originally Posted by Momof4

....If they had great parents and a great daycare provider they would still be THERE!

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Sometimes there are great 2 and up age kids who can join your program whose previous arrangements just fell through ... I have never had an issue integrating an older child ... generally way less work and quicker to get on board than an infant.

I will put her in a "spot" starting tomorrow if she starts again. And i will definately turn my attention to my other 3 kids. Hopefully she gives in. Listening to her cry and scream for up to 6 hours straight certainly takes a toll on your patience.

I 100 % agree with Reggio that kid knows shes in control. There is no way your making as much money as you should.

Good Luck!

Yes I would do the same as Reggio noted...also remember it may take a few days since she's older and is already a fighter!

Good Luck!

What have you done regarding this issue? She knows it's a game so getting upset with her, telling her it's unacceptable, or calling her grandmother is feeding into the behavior. She is OLD ENOUGH to know better. What I would do, honestly, is put her in a play pen, tell her if she's going to act like a baby, she's going to be treated like a baby, and put her in a room by herself. Go check on her once in a while, and if she's being quiet or being good, praise her but don't let her out. At least for one day. For the next few days, make this area her time out area. EVERY TIME she starts screaming, pick her up and WORDLESSLY place her in the her area. DO NOT talk to her. Don't even explain to her why she's there, she knows why she's there. Continue to do this EVERY TIME and you will notice that eventually it will become less and less. If it doesn't improve within three weeks, I'd say, I would terminate. It sucks for the little girl because she obviously has her parents wrapped around her little finger, and other daycare providers keep giving up on her. If she starts kindergarten like that, she'll get kicked out. This is what I would so anyways. I am PRO TIME OUTS. They ALWAYS work. If they are not receiving ANY attention for their behaviour and they are being taken away from the other kids, they will start to realize it just doesn't work. Because, I'm assuming, right now, she receives more attention than the other kids - even if it is negative behaviour.

I feel for you!! Just curious, does anything in particular trigger a crying fit?

I was in this position! I was recently caring for 4 1/2 yrs old twins and they had a rough start! The boy threw violent tantrums while the girl cried for her Mommy all day! The tantrums were quickly nipped in the bud, and the little boy got on wonderfully, but the girl just wouldn't quit. After a month and a half (I started with comforting her, then moved to removing her from the group when she started up) she was still incredibly disruptive and if I"m being honest incredibly annoying! At 4 1/2, you're not a baby anymore and there are better ways to voice your feelings than crying ALL DAY. She missed out on a lot of fun! After 2 months, I was at my wits end and the group couldn't handle it anymore either...even her brother! So, I discussed it withthe parents and they decided to have Grandma watch them instead. A huge change in the atmosphere, let me tell you!! So, I totally get how you're feeling....and if the other ladies suggestions don't work for this little one, then you shouldn't feel guilty at all for saying goodbye!

I didn't read all the responses but what I would do is ignore her bad behaviour and put her somewhere secure like playpen where she can not go anywhere and put her self in danger while you are dealing with other kids. Tell her that she will stay there until she behave and stop screaming. Believe me she will learn! and she will learn fast but you have to be strong too.

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Originally Posted by samroo326

What have you done regarding this issue? She knows it's a game so getting upset with her, telling her it's unacceptable, or calling her grandmother is feeding into the behavior. She is OLD ENOUGH to know better. What I would do, honestly, is put her in a play pen, tell her if she's going to act like a baby, she's going to be treated like a baby, and put her in a room by herself. Go check on her once in a while, and if she's being quiet or being good, praise her but don't let her out. At least for one day. For the next few days, make this area her time out area. EVERY TIME she starts screaming, pick her up and WORDLESSLY place her in the her area. DO NOT talk to her. Don't even explain to her why she's there, she knows why she's there. Continue to do this EVERY TIME and you will notice that eventually it will become less and less. If it doesn't improve within three weeks, I'd say, I would terminate. It sucks for the little girl because she obviously has her parents wrapped around her little finger, and other daycare providers keep giving up on her. If she starts kindergarten like that, she'll get kicked out. This is what I would so anyways. I am PRO TIME OUTS. They ALWAYS work. If they are not receiving ANY attention for their behaviour and they are being taken away from the other kids, they will start to realize it just doesn't work. Because, I'm assuming, right now, she receives more attention than the other kids - even if it is negative behaviour.

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LOVE this!

Thank you so much for all the advice. No nothing actually triggers her crying fits, she will just start crying while we are doing a craft, or free play etc... And when i ask her why she is crying i never actually get any answer. I will be using all your advice to try and get her hours of crying under control and win this game instead of giving up on her.

Momof5 it's really exhausting to have a child like that in care and it just drains you by the end of the day. But it's difficult for the other children too. Sometimes we have to think of the big picture and we are here to take care of ALL the children so it's ok to give up once in a while for the good of everyone. We all reach our limits when not seeing progress with a family and nonstop crying or aggressive behaviour are two situations where you shouldn't feel guilty if you have to replace the family. The feeling of relief and well-being when you have all great families and happy children in care is wonderful. Getting up in the morning and dreading your day is just not right!

Thanks so much momof4!!! Maybe that's what i needed. Yes i have started to dread her arrival each day. Yes i have felt guilty about terminating her, thinking that i just gave up, but honestly when i do look at the big picture there's nothing that makes this girl happy unless it's her mom. And i think you're 100% right, for the sake of the other kids and myself it would probably be best to just give my notice.

You are very welcome. Most of us have been in those shoes and it's really a hard decision but you won't believe how relieved you are until you start the daycare days out and realize how calm and happy you are and the other children will be. I hope you can replace them with a new family quickly. You might want to talk to the parents first and give them a 2 week warning or something then termination if no improvement. If the parents help out you may see improvement. Whatever you do, good luck.

If she is on her 4th dayhome in as many (or less) years.... then I would say one of two things is going on.
A) Mom and Dad don't have the tools to deal with this behaviour. They don't know what to do. If you think this is the case, and that they just need some guidance, then you can put together a detailed plan. "I will work with you IF: blah blah blah" List exactly what you expect. Put a timeline in place for improvement. End the relationship if none occurs.
OR (and I think this is more likely) B) they don't see a real problem and aren't doing a damn thing to change it. They have been asked to leave THREE childcare arrangements and they are still having the same issues? Puh-leeeze... In this case: Goodbye!

I think Momof4 said it ~ not easy but how horrible to get up dreading your day.
This business can make you burn out fast - you know your limit and you should listen to it.
Giving someone their notice is not easy - good luck if that is the route you go (and don't feel bad about it if you do)

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Originally Posted by mom-in-alberta

If she is on her 4th dayhome in as many (or less) years.... then I would say one of two things is going on.
A) Mom and Dad don't have the tools to deal with this behaviour. They don't know what to do. If you think this is the case, and that they just need some guidance, then you can put together a detailed plan. "I will work with you IF: blah blah blah" List exactly what you expect. Put a timeline in place for improvement. End the relationship if none occurs.
OR (and I think this is more likely) B) they don't see a real problem and aren't doing a damn thing to change it. They have been asked to leave THREE childcare arrangements and they are still having the same issues? Puh-leeeze... In this case: Goodbye!

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Yes I'm the 4th dayhome now. I've spoken to the parents about her crying all day long, and being so disrespectful towards me, numerous times. It's gotten me no where. Today is a day from Hell with her, i'm telling mom at pu that with this crying, and how disrespectful she has been towards me today that i don't want her back on Monday! So far today i've been told i'm stupid, she hates me etc... And this is said almost every other day, but mom and dad seem to think that i can continue to put up with it. i'm at my breaking point now!

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Originally Posted by jec

I think Momof4 said it ~ not easy but how horrible to get up dreading your day.
This business can make you burn out fast - you know your limit and you should listen to it.
Giving someone their notice is not easy - good luck if that is the route you go (and don't feel bad about it if you do)

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Oh she is burning me out fast!! I have never Had a child make me feel so stressed and upset as this girl makes me feel!!! I have to end it today with this family.

Sounds like you need to ~ your own sanity and everyone else in your daycare that has to listen to it and feel the stress that she causes.
Good luck tonight! It won't be easy as they might beg you since they did it once before but remember how your feeling right now and that will hopefully help you stick to your guns.

Momof5 .... I think you should have a letter of termination ready for pick up and her stuff at the door .....

I see you are in Ottawa ... Me too ... Where are you located? I'm near barrhaven

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Originally Posted by Crayola kiddies

Momof5 .... I think you should have a letter of termination ready for pick up and her stuff at the door .....

I see you are in Ottawa ... Me too ... Where are you located? I'm near barrhaven

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I'm in Barrahven! I'm preparing the letter, and i will have it in my hand when she arrives tonight.

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Originally Posted by jec

Sounds like you need to ~ your own sanity and everyone else in your daycare that has to listen to it and feel the stress that she causes.
Good luck tonight! It won't be easy as they might beg you since they did it once before but remember how your feeling right now and that will hopefully help you stick to your guns.

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I have to stick to my guns tonight, oh yes they will most likely try and get me to change my mind just like they did last time.

Let us know how it goes :(
Good luck!

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Originally Posted by jec

Let us know how it goes :(
Good luck!

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I will let you know how it goes for sure tonight.

Sending you vibes of strength and courage - feeling us all standing there behind you chanting 'you go girl' :glomp:

I had a set of twins just like this, possibly worse if you can believe that. They swore at me and the other children constantly (they were 2.5)..they would scream until they threw up all over the place. They were violent to myself and the other children. They would self-mutilate (she would pull her hair out in clumps and bite herself) if they didn't get their own way. They beat up their mother on a regular basis and beat up each other. It was awful! They were the most exhausting children I have ever worked with. I lasted 6 months before I couldn't take it anymore. I can only imagine what they will be like in a few years...

My advice, terminate asap. You will not believe the difference in your daycare, the daycare kiddos and your mood. I was literally going to bed at 7pm on the days they were here just wiped! They've been gone a couple months now and things have changed so much. I can now stay up longer than my 6 year old haha, but I no longer feel the dread of getting up on their days, the constant tummy pain wondering who/what they would hurt break. I don't clock watch now like I used too, counting down literally the seconds until it was time for them to go home.

Lesson learned for me...I would NEVER wait as long as I did with those 2 again.

How did it go? I'm so sorry you feel so bad about this situation, but you are doing what is best if you know for sure you are at your breaking point and the parents will not help make it better. That's when I terminate too, when the parents are not helping to solve the problem. They are letting their poor little girl suffer because they won't parent her and teach her to become a lovely little person, really, really sad. They will definitely pay the price when she becomes a teenager.

Update.... I gave mom my 14 day notice of termination, She said she wasn't surprised! Nobody appologized for the behaviour! I did feel much better after i gave it to her. Now i just need to re advertise to fill her spot asap! Thank you all so much for helping stick to my decision and not back down with guilt!!!

Well congratulations - you need a count down ticker to FREEDOM from the rude behaviour and disrespect ... hopefully they will get their 'eye opener' sometime soon while it is still 'fixable' before she ends up one of the teens my SIL works with who are facing expulsion at school from their unruly tantrums and rude behaviour!

Congrats and stay tough, because if they are staying for the next 2 weeks it may get really rough. If they are the type of people who didn't respect you before I'm really scared how they may behave now toward you. Get that space filled quickly in case you need to terminate quicker, which is completely within your rights. I would terminate on the spot for major disrespect. Money be damned!

Yay momof5 glad to hear that you did it. Wonder if the child will behave in the same way once she enters school. These parents need a wake up call if you were the 4th daycare she's been too and she's only three.... Yikes.... Well very soon it won't be your problem any more. Btw I too am a mom of 5 ; ).