Home daycare with 12 kids

This morning I got a call regarding daycare. This mother proceeded to tell me her son was in a home daycare with 12 kids. I let her know that it was illegal she thought it was okay since there was 2 providers. I told her that the law says only 5 per household. She was shocked.
I am livid....I have been struggling to get kids in since relocating now I know why. These people only charging $25 a day and breaking all sorts of rules. They can afford to charge $10 less than the norm for the area because they have 12 kids. No wonder good home daycares get a bad rap.
Parents need to stop worrying about saving $10 a day and instead worry about potentially saving their kids lives.
I'm absolutely angry, frustrated and heartbroken.

Report them. This isn't going to stop unless we speak up. I feel we don't have a right to complain about this unless we help to fix the problem.

I would but I only know that they are located in whitby.

I know how you feel. It's very frustrating. I live in a small town and this is the way many many of the providers operate. 8-9 and 12 kids is not uncommon. For those of us who follow the rules to the letter; it's very hard. Unfortunately, money always talks first and since their rate is lower they fill the quickest. Something else that ticks me off is we pay taxes on the little bit we make and they don't even claim it.

I don't think they always fill up first. I would imagine it depends on the area somewhat as well. I'm well over the standard rate in my area and there are some who charge up to $10, $15 less than me....I'm full, they're not. I'm currently doing a waiting list for 2015/16. I really, really think that people who know what the rules are and are choosy about the kind of care their children get will always go for quality over price. I live in an area with a mixed income range and it's saturated with home daycares (several in my neighbourhood alone plus 2 formal daycares on my street). I've found aggressive advertising, keeping on top of what everyone else is doing and offering new 'twists' to business to be very, very helpful. Don't let people like that discourage you. They'll always be out there....but yeah, report them when you can! There are so many different kinds of families out there and we can mould our own businesses to suit any niche market we want. All we can do is continue to improve upon our own techniques and draw in those clients who recognize the differences between low budget and high quality.

I'm full too and I've noticed this one ad on kijijji all the time advertising and she's charging 15 dollars a day. Kinda makes you wonder too what goes on in the house since she is always looking for kids.
now on a side note, did the lady say if any of the children belonged to the provider. Some of us have alot of our own kids and then throw in daycare kids and then we look like we have a zoo of kids lol!

I understand that some provider have kids of their own but these providers had 12 in the same house. The law is that you can have 5 per house plus your own if you are not licensed.. They had two providers amongst 12 kids. I'm pretty sure that 7 of the kids were not the two providers biological kids.

This is the first time in 4 years I'm looking to fill spots. I relocated to a new city and I guess I have to make a name for myself. I'm advertising constantly with postings on numerous sites, flyers, drop in centers etc.... I have had a lot of inquiries for August and September but that's still a few months away.

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Originally Posted by cfred

I don't think they always fill up first. I would imagine it depends on the area somewhat as well. I'm well over the standard rate in my area and there are some who charge up to $10, $15 less than me....I'm full, they're not. I'm currently doing a waiting list for 2015/16. I really, really think that people who know what the rules are and are choosy about the kind of care their children get will always go for quality over price. I live in an area with a mixed income range and it's saturated with home daycares (several in my neighbourhood alone plus 2 formal daycares on my street). I've found aggressive advertising, keeping on top of what everyone else is doing and offering new 'twists' to business to be very, very helpful. Don't let people like that discourage you. They'll always be out there....but yeah, report them when you can! There are so many different kinds of families out there and we can mould our own businesses to suit any niche market we want. All we can do is continue to improve upon our own techniques and draw in those clients who recognize the differences between low budget and high quality.

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Yes you are correct. Their are people who care about the quality of care their child receives. Where I live the unemployment is very high and jobs hard to come by, and most at min. wag, therefore more people looking at the dollar. I guess I was just talking about the city I live not where others reside. I am inline with providers who follow the 5 rule and I've had two openings for 6 months!

This really burns me. All this crap about bill 143 is exactly because of situations like the OP describes. Because, historically, EVERY death that has occurred in home daycare in Ontario in recent years due to accident or homicide has been in an illegal daycare. And because of that all daycare is grouped together as "bad" and "illegal" if it is provided for in a HOME. It really bothers me because Bill 143 isn't going to stop this. Illegal daycares and law breakers are not going to suddenly tow the line because of some new law. But we all, those of us doing it right, are going to suffer and pay the consequences through new legislation, for those who really ARE illegal. And this is why now I report every.....single...i llegal daycare situation. I report it because it DOES affect ME.

BTW, I personally think that parents should also be charged with something when they place their child in an illegal or warehousing type daycare. In the past it is only providers who are charged but, IMO, parents should be held even MORE accountable because this is THEIR kid and they are ultimately responsible for keeping their child safe. Start charging parents with neglect or willfully putting a minor in harms way and only THEN will you stop warehousing.

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Originally Posted by Judy Trickett

This really burns me. All this crap about bill 143 is exactly because of situations like the OP describes. Because, historically, EVERY death that has occurred in home daycare in Ontario in recent years due to accident or homicide has been in an illegal daycare. And because of that all daycare is grouped together as "bad" and "illegal" if it is provided for in a HOME. It really bothers me because Bill 143 isn't going to stop this. Illegal daycares and law breakers are not going to suddenly tow the line because of some new law. But we all, those of us doing it right, are going to suffer and pay the consequences through new legislation, for those who really ARE illegal. And this is why now I report every.....single...i llegal daycare situation. I report it because it DOES affect ME.

BTW, I personally think that parents should also be charged with something when they place their child in an illegal or warehousing type daycare. In the past it is only providers who are charged but, IMO, parents should be held even MORE accountable because this is THEIR kid and they are ultimately responsible for keeping their child safe. Start charging parents with neglect or willfully putting a minor in harms way and only THEN will you stop warehousing.

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I agree 100%, parents should be the "inspector" everyday at drop off and pick up. Whenever a parent calls and the first question they ask is my fee I see a red flag. Don't get me wrong I know people are pinching pennies but that's why there is daycare subsidy. I mean that should not be the first question IMO. T

I agree with you Judy. Parents need to be held accountable as well. I can't imagine being a parent and dropping my child off somewhere where they are "hoarding" children. Unfortunately, some parents don't do their research and don't even know the laws. Or they ask the dcp and the dcp tells them a lie and the parent doesn't check the facts. I have had parents and friends ask me what the laws are here (MB) and are shocked when I tell them. Quite a few have told me that they were told by other dcp's that it's 5.

Here in MB, we are allowed 4 including your own children. I wish that they would increase the number to 5 or 6 but I don't think that will happen. Like you said, illegal daycare's will continue to operate. I'm not sure about elsewhere but here, if a dcp is found to have too many children all that happens is they are made to call the parents immediately and all need to be picked up asap. The dcp can open again as long as they stick to the 4 child rule and/or take the steps to become licensed. Their is no real consequence to running over the limit other than the parents are without dc as of the next day. (and of course the potential risk of injury increases with the larger amount of children)

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Originally Posted by Judy Trickett

BTW, I personally think that parents should also be charged with something when they place their child in an illegal or warehousing type daycare. In the past it is only providers who are charged but, IMO, parents should be held even MORE accountable because this is THEIR kid and they are ultimately responsible for keeping their child safe. Start charging parents with neglect or willfully putting a minor in harms way and only THEN will you stop warehousing.

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This would fix the problem and educate parents on home daycare laws.

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Originally Posted by Teagansmom

This is the first time in 4 years I'm looking to fill spots. I relocated to a new city and I guess I have to make a name for myself. I'm advertising constantly with postings on numerous sites, flyers, drop in centers etc.... I have had a lot of inquiries for August and September but that's still a few months away.

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I went through the exact same thing when I moved here 18 months ago. Brand new and had to rebuild. I was in an utter panic, especially with this being my only source of income. Unfortunately, yeah....there's that bit of time while you rebuild, but once it's through it's (so far) smooth sailing. I did have some lean months to start, but now it's good. I also changed my approach completely, which, so far, has been very well received. Do you have a website? I also had a lot of people say in interviews that they liked that I was very descriptive in my ad on here...that plus the website was their initial reason for contacting me. I looked at what other providers in the area were doing and tried to expand on those practices or change them up a little for something a little different. Good luck....I really hope you fill those spaces soon! It's like watching a pot boil though, isn't it?!

And for Judy's comment about parents having some culpability, YUP!!! I thought that the mum of the little girl in Vaughan was pretty cheeky in pointing the finger at everyone but herself. It's terrible that she lost her little daughter, but gawd woman! Really??? You left your kid THERE!?

Thanks cfred, I'm hoping things will pick up soon. I'm currently working on getting a website up and running. I've had a lot of postcard flyers made up and I pass them around at the mall, homes, leave them at super markets. They have a few photos of my set up and detailed info on my program.
With regards to your website do you use weebly?

Honestly, I'm not sure what site was used to make my website. My brother in law did it for me (thank goodness!!!)...but it was from a template. I have no computer skills whatsoever. PM me if you want to have a look at my website. I kept it fairly brief. It's detailed enough that it gives the general idea and looks professional, but succinct enough that it's not daunting to read through. I also didn't list my prices....they have to call for that :) I know the waiting game is the really hard part. It took me a year to fill my final space with one bad placement after another. Now I seem to be on track. It takes time. Like anywhere, I have people who come in and low ball all of us. I decided to go the other route and up the ante as going lower just isn't an option. I'm honestly amazed that it worked!

you can have all the laws in the world and thats not going to stop the people. The vaugn incident proved some important things, they offered cheap daycare, the home was investigated several times including the health department, they spoke another language, and their home looked very messy but yet the parents dropped their kids off there every single day. I think its coming down to people are looking for cheap daycare and when something happens are quick to point fingers at everyone else but themselves.

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Originally Posted by Judy Trickett

BTW, I personally think that parents should also be charged with something when they place their child in an illegal or warehousing type daycare. In the past it is only providers who are charged but, IMO, parents should be held even MORE accountable because this is THEIR kid and they are ultimately responsible for keeping their child safe. Start charging parents with neglect or willfully putting a minor in harms way and only THEN will you stop warehousing.

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Somebody had to say it. If you as a parent don't properly look into where you are sending your child, you are partly responsible for anything that happens.

I absolutely agree Judy, parents should be charged with neglect or wilful endangerment for putting their child in an unsafe environment.

This has been bothering me for a while..........does anyone know what the cause of death was for the little girl in Vaughn? I ask because I don't think the "providers" were charged criminally for her death so I wonder if it was accidental or natural.

I am going to be the odd ball out here but here are my thoughts (I know this is a little off the main topic and more to mimi's comment). Now yes having 12 children is way too many and not safe but here is my argument.

So every province is different on the amount of children allowed. So lets say a provider has 5 children and is over her limit by 1 and then a provider who is legally allowed 4 plus her own children on top of that (so say she has 8 kids total) - how is the one who is over 1 (but under the amount of 8) endangering those children and being neglectful? Just because the law states that she can only legally have 4 instead of 5 but the law in another province states they can have 4 plus their own children? This is where I have always been annoyed that the government doesn't regulate private daycare's across Canada. Also how is a licenced provider who is allowed more children any better than a private provider - just because she has someone come in a few times a year to check on things. If you are a bad provider it won't matter if you have a licence or not. I just think the whole thing seems out to lunch to me.

Using your example Micky... Please tell me why is it ok for her to break the law? It may not be just in your eyes but it still is the law. THIS is why Ontario has so many problems with unlicensed childcare because of thinking like THAT!

I see what you are saying mickyc. There is a provider in my area who has 3 of her own and then has 5 others in her care. I see her out for walks and she has a tough time corralling her herd of kiddies. I then think to myself, I can only have 5 for safety reasons etc. and other provider has 8. Don't get me wrong, for me 5 is enough, I know my limitations, but still, I do have a sense of unfairness.
Of course, I am sure she is an excellent provider as the kiddies always look happy and dressed appropriately for the weather however, I do feel she is over extending herself. What makes me know 5 is enough for me yet she thinks 8 is ok for her?
Just wondering.

Mickyc is not saying it is ok to break the law, she is just wondering about the disparage in numbers for those who have their own little ones and those who don't.

Yes I do realize it is breaking the law but this is why I think that there should be the same rules for all of Canada. People break the law everyday - driving over the speed limit, texting/talking on phone while driving. Is it right NO but it happens. There isn't anyone in this planet who hasn't broken some sort of law at one point I just find that I have better things to do with my time than pointing fingers at all those who do wrong when we all aren't perfect.

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Originally Posted by 5 Little Monkeys

I agree with you Judy. Parents need to be held accountable as well. I can't imagine being a parent and dropping my child off somewhere where they are "hoarding" children. Unfortunately, some parents don't do their research and don't even know the laws. Or they ask the dcp and the dcp tells them a lie and the parent doesn't check the facts. I have had parents and friends ask me what the laws are here (MB) and are shocked when I tell them. Quite a few have told me that they were told by other dcp's that it's 5.

Here in MB, we are allowed 4 including your own children. I wish that they would increase the number to 5 or 6 but I don't think that will happen. Like you said, illegal daycare's will continue to operate. I'm not sure about elsewhere but here, if a dcp is found to have too many children all that happens is they are made to call the parents immediately and all need to be picked up asap. The dcp can open again as long as they stick to the 4 child rule and/or take the steps to become licensed. Their is no real consequence to running over the limit other than the parents are without dc as of the next day. (and of course the potential risk of injury increases with the larger amount of children)

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Yeah, I tried to report some providers over their allowed numbers last summer and found it to be a very frustrating procedure. I didn't know their home address, but knew that they went to the same park every single day with their large crews (there were 3 providers well over their limits) and nothing would be done since all the government agency would do is send them a letter to tell them to stop. There is no real consquence to keep people from breaking the law, and most parents do not seem to know the law.

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Originally Posted by AmandaKDT

Yeah, I tried to report some providers over their allowed numbers last summer and found it to be a very frustrating procedure. I didn't know their home address, but knew that they went to the same park every single day with their large crews (there were 3 providers well over their limits) and nothing would be done since all the government agency would do is send them a letter to tell them to stop. There is no real consquence to keep people from breaking the law, and most parents do not seem to know the law.

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I know of a few daycares that go over their numbers, and it's frustrating. It's too bad there isn't a better system for home daycares.
Personally, I couldn't do it. I know I could have gotten away with it, because parents around here really don't care if you're following the rules. However, I really wouldn't feel good about it. I don't want to worry about parents being able to hold that over your head if they got angry about something. I don't want to worry that something terrible might happen, and it happened in an illegal situation. Too much worry for me, I would much rather make less money, but do it legally.

I understand what you mean Mickyc. It doesn't make sense to me either how the provinces have such different rules.

Amanda....I know of one dcp who was reported in a small town years ago. She reopened the next day with the legal number of kids. She took a few years off from hdc and worked in a centre but is doing hdc again. A friend of mine who lives in the same town as her has said she has heard she's over the number again...like 8-10 children! She is a well loved dcp though and all the parents are apparently "okay" with it. I hope for everyone's sake that nothing terrible happens!

Superfun....We are from the same city and I sorta agree with you on how the parents don't care if we go over the numbers. However, almost every family I have interviewed do ask how many I can have. Once they get to know me though they all say that they wish the numbers would be legally raised as well as they can see that I am quite capable of looking after more than 4. (as are many others, which is why I hope they raise the numbers for us....I know, I know, not gonna happen lol) It would certainly help out the shortage of dc spots and would help us out financially!

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Originally Posted by 5 Little Monkeys

Superfun....We are from the same city and I sorta agree with you on how the parents don't care if we go over the numbers. However, almost every family I have interviewed do ask how many I can have. Once they get to know me though they all say that they wish the numbers would be legally raised as well as they can see that I am quite capable of looking after more than 4. (as are many others, which is why I hope they raise the numbers for us....I know, I know, not gonna happen lol) It would certainly help out the shortage of dc spots and would help us out financially!

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Wouldn't that be great if they allowed private daycares to have 5 children? It makes me wonder if the ones that are already taking 5 would still add an extra child though?

They might superfun but that will happen anywhere with anything. There are always going to be rules broken like mickyc said. To be honest though, I don't really care what other dcp's do in regard to numbers. I just want to have 5 for myself lol

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Originally Posted by mickyc

I am going to be the odd ball out here but here are my thoughts (I know this is a little off the main topic and more to mimi's comment). Now yes having 12 children is way too many and not safe but here is my argument.

So every province is different on the amount of children allowed. So lets say a provider has 5 children and is over her limit by 1 and then a provider who is legally allowed 4 plus her own children on top of that (so say she has 8 kids total) - how is the one who is over 1 (but under the amount of 8) endangering those children and being neglectful? Just because the law states that she can only legally have 4 instead of 5 but the law in another province states they can have 4 plus their own children? This is where I have always been annoyed that the government doesn't regulate private daycare's across Canada. Also how is a licenced provider who is allowed more children any better than a private provider - just because she has someone come in a few times a year to check on things. If you are a bad provider it won't matter if you have a licence or not. I just think the whole thing seems out to lunch to me.

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I TOTALLY agree that the laws are not cohesive and have many defects not only across the country but within each individual province. You make a great point about the provider's children not counting and a mom potentially having 4 or 5 kids of her own PLUS five dckids (in Ontario, at least) but a provider with NO children of her own can still only care for five kids - total!

I agree, the law is really stupid and there seems to be a lot of problems with the current laws. I personally DO like that this Bill will attempt to make providers count their own kids into the numbers. HOWEVER, as the current statistical numbers indicate that MOST parents have two kids of their own that means that the bulk of providers are currently (or have) cared very well for FIVE dckids PLUS two of their own - which makes seven kids. I would like to see the law changed to a total of seven or eight kids INCLUDING the provider's kids. That way providers with two or three kids of their own can still make a fair living in home daycare.

But, in the end, the law is the law. If a doctor or dentist or school teacher were not following the law, regardless of how stupid it was, the public would be outraged. We should be held to the same standard, IMO.

Yes, the law is STUPID, but it's the law.

funny thing is that we are no different than teachers, why is it that some classes have 32 kids in their class and one teacher and yet we argue over 5 kids, really isn't any different (as a matter of fact school agers are even harder to deal with) and really these teachers don't have any special training with dealing with so many.

I think too what it comes down to is a parent learns to manage multiple ages of kids when she cares for her own kids and sets her home up accordingly with the appropriate age toys, equipment, and presumably the more kids she has the bigger a house she has - hence more play space. It then becomes easier for her to integrate extra children into what she is already doing having gone through the teething, when a child is about to walk or start climbing stairs, etc. so ahead in recognizing safety issues then it is for someone with no kids and maybe some book learning from a course or two.

Yes some moms are frazzled with just their own kids but others thrive on it. I am one of those mom to 4 of my own and always had 5 daycare.

One of the differences between us and school teachers is that they have back up if needed or in case of an emergency.

Also, they are not "caring" for 32 children (ie. changing diapers, preparing food, helping eat etc) they are "teaching" them (ie. organized and structured teaching)