Home daycare with 12 kids

[giraffe]

Using your example Micky... Please tell me why is it ok for her to break the law? It may not be just in your eyes but it still is the law. THIS is why Ontario has so many problems with unlicensed childcare because of thinking like THAT!

[mimi]

I see what you are saying mickyc. There is a provider in my area who has 3 of her own and then has 5 others in her care. I see her out for walks and she has a tough time corralling her herd of kiddies. I then think to myself, I can only have 5 for safety reasons etc. and other provider has 8. Don't get me wrong, for me 5 is enough, I know my limitations, but still, I do have a sense of unfairness.
Of course, I am sure she is an excellent provider as the kiddies always look happy and dressed appropriately for the weather however, I do feel she is over extending herself. What makes me know 5 is enough for me yet she thinks 8 is ok for her?
Just wondering.

[mimi]

Mickyc is not saying it is ok to break the law, she is just wondering about the disparage in numbers for those who have their own little ones and those who don't.

[mickyc]

Yes I do realize it is breaking the law but this is why I think that there should be the same rules for all of Canada. People break the law everyday - driving over the speed limit, texting/talking on phone while driving. Is it right NO but it happens. There isn't anyone in this planet who hasn't broken some sort of law at one point I just find that I have better things to do with my time than pointing fingers at all those who do wrong when we all aren't perfect.

[AmandaKDT]

I agree with you Judy. Parents need to be held accountable as well. I can't imagine being a parent and dropping my child off somewhere where they are "hoarding" children. Unfortunately, some parents don't do their research and don't even know the laws. Or they ask the dcp and the dcp tells them a lie and the parent doesn't check the facts. I have had parents and friends ask me what the laws are here (MB) and are shocked when I tell them. Quite a few have told me that they were told by other dcp's that it's 5.

Here in MB, we are allowed 4 including your own children. I wish that they would increase the number to 5 or 6 but I don't think that will happen. Like you said, illegal daycare's will continue to operate. I'm not sure about elsewhere but here, if a dcp is found to have too many children all that happens is they are made to call the parents immediately and all need to be picked up asap. The dcp can open again as long as they stick to the 4 child rule and/or take the steps to become licensed. Their is no real consequence to running over the limit other than the parents are without dc as of the next day. (and of course the potential risk of injury increases with the larger amount of children)

Yeah, I tried to report some providers over their allowed numbers last summer and found it to be a very frustrating procedure. I didn't know their home address, but knew that they went to the same park every single day with their large crews (there were 3 providers well over their limits) and nothing would be done since all the government agency would do is send them a letter to tell them to stop. There is no real consquence to keep people from breaking the law, and most parents do not seem to know the law.

[superfun]

Yeah, I tried to report some providers over their allowed numbers last summer and found it to be a very frustrating procedure. I didn't know their home address, but knew that they went to the same park every single day with their large crews (there were 3 providers well over their limits) and nothing would be done since all the government agency would do is send them a letter to tell them to stop. There is no real consquence to keep people from breaking the law, and most parents do not seem to know the law.

I know of a few daycares that go over their numbers, and it's frustrating. It's too bad there isn't a better system for home daycares.
Personally, I couldn't do it. I know I could have gotten away with it, because parents around here really don't care if you're following the rules. However, I really wouldn't feel good about it. I don't want to worry about parents being able to hold that over your head if they got angry about something. I don't want to worry that something terrible might happen, and it happened in an illegal situation. Too much worry for me, I would much rather make less money, but do it legally.

[5 Little Monkeys]

I understand what you mean Mickyc. It doesn't make sense to me either how the provinces have such different rules.

Amanda....I know of one dcp who was reported in a small town years ago. She reopened the next day with the legal number of kids. She took a few years off from hdc and worked in a centre but is doing hdc again. A friend of mine who lives in the same town as her has said she has heard she's over the number again...like 8-10 children! She is a well loved dcp though and all the parents are apparently "okay" with it. I hope for everyone's sake that nothing terrible happens!

Superfun....We are from the same city and I sorta agree with you on how the parents don't care if we go over the numbers. However, almost every family I have interviewed do ask how many I can have. Once they get to know me though they all say that they wish the numbers would be legally raised as well as they can see that I am quite capable of looking after more than 4. (as are many others, which is why I hope they raise the numbers for us....I know, I know, not gonna happen lol) It would certainly help out the shortage of dc spots and would help us out financially!

[superfun]

Superfun....We are from the same city and I sorta agree with you on how the parents don't care if we go over the numbers. However, almost every family I have interviewed do ask how many I can have. Once they get to know me though they all say that they wish the numbers would be legally raised as well as they can see that I am quite capable of looking after more than 4. (as are many others, which is why I hope they raise the numbers for us....I know, I know, not gonna happen lol) It would certainly help out the shortage of dc spots and would help us out financially!

Wouldn't that be great if they allowed private daycares to have 5 children? It makes me wonder if the ones that are already taking 5 would still add an extra child though?

[5 Little Monkeys]

They might superfun but that will happen anywhere with anything. There are always going to be rules broken like mickyc said. To be honest though, I don't really care what other dcp's do in regard to numbers. I just want to have 5 for myself lol

[Judy Trickett]

I am going to be the odd ball out here but here are my thoughts (I know this is a little off the main topic and more to mimi's comment). Now yes having 12 children is way too many and not safe but here is my argument.

So every province is different on the amount of children allowed. So lets say a provider has 5 children and is over her limit by 1 and then a provider who is legally allowed 4 plus her own children on top of that (so say she has 8 kids total) - how is the one who is over 1 (but under the amount of 8) endangering those children and being neglectful? Just because the law states that she can only legally have 4 instead of 5 but the law in another province states they can have 4 plus their own children? This is where I have always been annoyed that the government doesn't regulate private daycare's across Canada. Also how is a licenced provider who is allowed more children any better than a private provider - just because she has someone come in a few times a year to check on things. If you are a bad provider it won't matter if you have a licence or not. I just think the whole thing seems out to lunch to me.

I TOTALLY agree that the laws are not cohesive and have many defects not only across the country but within each individual province. You make a great point about the provider's children not counting and a mom potentially having 4 or 5 kids of her own PLUS five dckids (in Ontario, at least) but a provider with NO children of her own can still only care for five kids - total!

I agree, the law is really stupid and there seems to be a lot of problems with the current laws. I personally DO like that this Bill will attempt to make providers count their own kids into the numbers. HOWEVER, as the current statistical numbers indicate that MOST parents have two kids of their own that means that the bulk of providers are currently (or have) cared very well for FIVE dckids PLUS two of their own - which makes seven kids. I would like to see the law changed to a total of seven or eight kids INCLUDING the provider's kids. That way providers with two or three kids of their own can still make a fair living in home daycare.

But, in the end, the law is the law. If a doctor or dentist or school teacher were not following the law, regardless of how stupid it was, the public would be outraged. We should be held to the same standard, IMO.

Yes, the law is STUPID, but it's the law.