Tragedy at a home daycare in Vaughan, ON

[Sandbox Sally]

I didn't say anything about welfare, but I adamantly disagree with you on that, too.

I am talking about subsidized child care. Pretty much everyone who makes less than $70k qualifies for it around here. Daycare costs are crazy.

Why do you hate the poor? What's with the chip on your shoulder? Why should you pay for other peoples' children? Do you get baby bonus or universal tax credit? Where does the money come for that, do you suppose? I am guaranteeing that some of it comes from people who don't even have children, but as we choose to live on the grid and in a society, we all choose to pay for the collective good of our society. Do your children go to school? Do you pay for private school? Because if they go to public school, I guarantee you that my aunt and uncle who are childless help pay for them to go to school. You are missing the point. It is our job as a collective to raise each generation, not single handedly by any means, but a little bit from each, as a COLLECTIVE GROUP.

And those who are stuck on the point that if you cannot afford quality childcare without subsidy, you shouldn't have children, what if your awesome ideal utopian circumstances suddenly change? Even if you can easily afford quality daycare when you get pregnant, that's no insurance that you'll always be able to afford it. Any family can experience job loss, death of a parent, divorce, or insurmountable medical bills or condition that make them unable to afford things they never thought they would have to do without.

I continue to be appalled at the attitude that so many of you feel that it's "not your problem" and can so easily turn your backs on the most vulnerable in our world.

Again, I went to school for four years. My potential income does not exceed $20 per hour. Should I then go back and accumulate extra student debt, which I can barely afford now? And for what? Can you lead me to a degree that will have me out and working to support three children on one salary, up to and including daycare, food, utilities, loan payments, rent, gas and clothing? Or should I hand over my kids to Children's Aid now? Or should I shack up with some random so that s/he can pay half the bills?

Your expectations are prejudiced and unrealistic. I can't believe I am reading this.

[Sandbox Sally]

Also, just to be clear: I am NOT saying people who aren't well-off shouldn't have children. My parents and many of their friends, relatives, etc were not well-off when they had their children, but they did the best they could with what they had... they didn't rely on the Gov't and taxpayers to fill in those gaps.

Children can be raised very well on limited means... it's all in what you prioritize.

But that's exactly what you are saying. So take Toronto as an example. Who's paying for me to move from downtown to the suburbs? Where in the suburbs can I get a place to suit my budget? Or, should I just move to another part of the province, or maybe to a different province? Last time I looked, smaller towns don't pay as much as city centres for the same jobs. They also don't have the economy to support the jobs if we are forcing the poor people out of the cities. What does that mean?

I work a $20 per hour job. Awesome. I am single. I have three children. My take home pay is 2700 per month. Let's say the two same gendered kids share a room. My son has his own room. I sleep in the living room. The average rent in the city or Etobicoke, or North York, or Scarborough or even further out for a two bedroom apartment is $1200 dollars. We need to eat. That's $600 per month. We need heat and lights. That's $200 a month, minimum. I have to get back and forth to work. So let's be generous and say it only costs me $10 a day to commute to and from work. there's another $200 a month.

I now have $500 a month left. oh wait. I have three kids' daycare to pay for. Let's see...3 times $35 per day equals, what? $105 per day, times five days a week. That equals $525. A WEEK. I have $500 left for the MONTH.

I don't have a phone. I sure hope nobody needs an ambulance. I don't have internet, tv, and I haven't paid for clothing, haircuts, haven't taken my kids to the movies or paid for their class trip. I haven't bought any cleaners or laundry soap. It sure would be nice to have some daycare subsidy money right about now.

What do you suggest I cut out? Do you get it now?

[jammiesandtea]

Well, this has gotten pointless because it's now just arguing between completely different political and personal points of view that are extremely unlikely to be changed in a conversation such as this... but since you asked: If those are someone's circumstances, I think A) 3 children are beyond what can be responsibly afforded... and B) If they were brought into the world under different circumstances ie: when there was a relationship with another income provider/their father... then HE should also be contributing to their support, which would change those budget amounts.

At the end of the day, we are each personally responsible for our own choices and the little people we bring into the world. It behooves us each to examine WHO we choose to bring little people into the world with, as well, before doing so.

I do not, and will not, subscribe to the notion of "poor me, I need the rest of society to pay for my choices". Genuine disability is a different matter altogether, and is not a choice. I believe all decent compassionate people believe in taking care of the truly vulnerable members of our society.

But PARENTS need to take full responsibility for the children they bring into the world.

[Sandbox Sally]

Wow. Really? Now we are supposed to foresee our husband leaving and not paying support? What if he died? Oh, it's ok if you're disabled, ok. But not if you've been laid off? This isn't a matter of political points of view. It's about being realistic. Tell me, in the scenario with the money I outlined, what would YOU do? Your husband left and you can't find him. Should you hook or drug deal before turning to your "handout" in the way of child care subsidy? Because, of course, it's your own fault he left, because you should have chosen a better mate. THIS makes me nauseous, to think that anyone thinks an abused woman deserves to be penniless because of her choice of mate.

And, again, you mention that if you can't afford the daycare, then you should not have kids. What if you already have the kids? Do you...what? Give them up for adoption? You are not thinking clearly. You are thinking from a position of privilege.

ETA: I hope your kids don't attend public school. Because if they do, under your watchful eye, you should probably pay back all the childless couples you're mooching off of.

[jammiesandtea]

I am not thinking from a position of privilege. I am thinking from a position of personal responsibility. If one's husband passes away, there are funds sent monthly from his CPP that would fill the same gap that support is normally meant to fill.

Again, I stated before, for short term issues like lay-offs or the need to re-train, I am all for temporary programs to help people get on their own feet in a more stable position.

If you have 3 kids and your deadbeat husband left and does not pay support, and you're not qualified to bring in an adequate income and have no interest in re-training, then my suggestion would be to open a home daycare. No daycare fees for your children, and you can make a half decent living for your family. Problem solved.

[Sandbox Sally]

Neat and tidy. With a bow. Not everyone is cut out to run a daycare. You have no idea what you're talking about. YEAH, you're talking from privilege. Why is it ok to take the CPP stipend for a dead husband, but not ok to take daycare subsidy? You aren't making any sense.

[jammiesandtea]

Neat and tidy. With a bow. Not everyone is cut out to run a daycare. You have no idea what you're talking about. YEAH, you're talking from privilege. Why is it ok to take the CPP stipend for a dead husband, but not ok to take daycare subsidy? You aren't making any sense.

Because CPP survivor benefits are not handouts paid by taxpayers, they are payments that the deceased PAID INTO over their working career, and would have been paid to them upon retirement. Instead, their surviving spouse and minor children receive that money that was EARNED.

And I am done with this conversation. You are entitled to your opinion, even if I think it's unfortunate, and based on a socialist, welfare-state mentality. We will just have to agree to disagree. Have an awesome rest of the day!

[Sandbox Sally]

Oh. And working people don't pay income tax or any other taxes? Is daycare subsidy a handout? It's given to WORKING FAMILIES who all pay taxes.

If you are comfortable enough tell me that I am a socialist and have a welfare-state mentality, I will feel comfortable saying to you that your ideas are based on prejudice, hate and ignorance, and a me-me-me mentality.

And I hope you have a super duper day too!

[dodge__driver11]

Well I am socialist leaning with some conservative view points, I guess Jammies and I would be on opposite ends of the floor, now wouldn't we?

[Crayola kiddies]

Umm Sally don't you run a daycare? Or were you just stating a scenario for the average person ? As I said I believe the social assistance system should only be for a limited time. I don't hate poor people , hell I'm not far off from it....I don't have a big fancy degree hanging on my wall and so when I need to put three kids in daycare I said not way and I opened my daycare .... I don't have to pay gas to commute, don't need a special wardrobe, and I'm here for my kids when they get home from school and I bring in an income ......yes I send my kids to public schools and yes I am aware that people who don't have children in the school system still have to pay for it in their taxes ... I don't agree with it... Yes I get child tax credit but this is what I'm trying to say.... Almost all parents qualify for this but then the government is continuing to hand out more money in the form of welfare, subsidized housing, reduced utility rates, and the list goes on .... My mother raised three kids by herself with no support .... She worked two jobs! I was a single mother for a few years and I worked my ass off at my minimum wage job and oh by the way minimum wage was $8.50 I think at the time ....I've been there, done that and not knowing if your going to make all the bills at the end of the month is not fun. But I'm not a hater or an elitist living in an idealistic world but I do abhor people that sit on their ass all day collecting welfare and many other breaks while I bust my butt trying to make a life for my kids.....